Question of age of a RD & Co LIVERPOOL pocket watch

[cyma]

I'm looking to buy a Sterling Silver pocket watch by R.D & Co of Liverpool (eng'). The date stamp looks to 1803. My question - does this sound possible?

[cyma]

I'm looking to buy a Sterling Silver pocket watch by R.D & Co of Liverpool (eng'). The date stamp looks to 1803. My question - does this sound possible?

[Jerry Matthews]

An English watch made in 1803 would most likely have the individual watchmaker's name on the movement, not a rather anonymous RD & Co. I suspect this watch is later than 1803. Can you give us more of a description of the hallmark? English hallmarks are not all that easy to interpret. Usually there will be four parts: A lion walking to the left, indicating sterling silver; the town assay mark which will be leopard head for London, anchor for Birmingham or three wheatsheaves and a sword for Chester; a letter indicating the date the case was assayed, and finally the silversmith's initials. The date letter is the complicated bit because they were changed in 20 year cycles, and you need to know the style of the letter plus shape of the shield surrounding it to determine the date.

Photos of the watch, movement, and hallmark would be a great help in identifying it.

Regards, Jerry

[Don Dahlberg]

We can also take a good guess on the date based on the shape of the balance cock. When we are not sure on which repeat of the hallmark to use, the balance cock can put us in the correct decade. A clear photo of the back of the movement along with the case hallmarks would greatly help us date your watch.

Don

[cyma]

Thanks for the response Jerry. I cant send a photo - no digital camera at the moment. I had a lok at the movement and it has the name Stewart Dawson (I misread the first initial - S not D) LIVERPOOL. The SS markings are a Lion indicating Sterling Silver, an Anchor for Birmingham and the letter F in a shield shape. I guees this makes it 1803 as I was told?

[Don Dahlberg]

If you look down on the balance cock, the part over the balance is a disk, while the part that attaches to the plate is like a old fashion fan. About 1690 this fan is open all the way. As the decades pass the fan is closed more and more. By 1805 is about the same width as the disk over the balance. In 1700, both sections of the balance cock were pierced. Before 1740, the circular part had a symmetric pattern. By 1750, only the circular part was pierced. By 1800 the piercing and engraving was not well done. Some balance cocks were shaped like those on chronometers where the circular part had itself become a rounded arrowhead.

Here is an early example of 1730 http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/m778a.jpg

These are about 1780 http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/m598a.jpg and http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/m608a.jpg

About 1790 http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/m915a.jpg

1794 http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/w7940c.jpg

Here is the arrowhead type balance cock from about 1810 http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/m850a.jpg

This one has the more traditional balance cock about 1810 http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/m480a.jpg

Here is one from 1820 http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/w7967b.jpg and 1821 http://barrygoldberg.net/watch24.htm Notice the regulator disk is gone.


and 1827 http://www.antique-watch.com/img4/w7954b.jpg

We can also tell a great deal from the bow on the case.

Put this together and we can put a fair date on the watch without a clear hallmark.

Don

[Jerry Matthews]

Stewart Dawson & Co. is listed as working in Liverpool from 1878-1888. The Birmingham hallmark is doubtless a small f in an oval shield, which dates the case to 1880. You can check the hallmark from the attached list. The hallmark date and maker's dates match very neatly.jerrymatthews-uk.com (http://jerrymatthews-uk.com)

[cyma]

Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the information. I've had another close look at the hallmarks and the small letter f is DEFINATELY in a shield shape, not an oval. Your information regarding Stewart Dawson & Co would seem to suggest that what I have here is a movemnt from about 188o in a case manufactured in 1800. The case also has a stamp, that I presume is the maker, AJ and below that the number 13.

[Jerry Matthews]

It is certainly possible that someone could have mounted a newer movement in an old case. I have seen examples of it before, often for a perfectly good reason such as original case badly damaged, hinges broken etc.

The AJ is a bit of a mystery, however. Priestly's Watch Case Makers of England lists two AJ's, Alfred Johnson and Alfred Jacob. But both were registered in the Birmingham assay office in the 1870s--1880s.

[peg leg]

Don, great looking watches and thanks for sharing for stare and compare. Love the mask.

Jerry, thanks for later dates on Birmingham hallmarks (I did not have).

I find the verges with the many different mask so interesting.........Keith R...

http://static.flickr.com/53/114638620_a4a118712e_o.jpg