Santa Fe Special

[Rancher]

Should this watch be in a Santa Fe case to be original? Bob

[Rancher]

Should this watch be in a Santa Fe case to be original? Bob

[Kent]

Hi Rancher:

The Santa Fe Watch Co. contracted for privately labeled movements made by the Illinois Watch Co. These were sold, cased in Santa Fe signed cases, exclusively via mail order. In fact, the firm's advertising, which was very similar to that of the Burlington Watch Co., was fairly heavy on the hype - one had to look very closely to find the total price of the watch. Many Santa Fe Watch Co. ads in the railroad brotherhood journals mixed the discussion of Santa Fe's watches with those of the Illinois Bunn Special, which was also sold by Santa Fe, in Santa Fe signed cases, so that it was difficult to determine what the description of the Santa Fe Special actually was.

Santa Fe advertised heavily in the railroad brotherhood journals, although only a portion of the railroads seem to have accepted Illinois-Santa Fe watches for railroad time service. To quote from page 141 of “Railroad Watches Identification and Price Guide,” Roy Ehrhardt & William Meggers, Jr., Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1995 (Still in print, see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com), or S. LaRose (http://www.slarose.com/cgi-bin/slarose/055219.html#)), <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All Santa Fe Special watches, as originally sold, were cased in Santa Fe Watch Co.-marked cases ... with many different styule backs. Some Santa Fe Specials were Railroad Grade (RRG) and some railroads, notably the Union Pacific, accepted all 16-size Santa Fe Specials in Time Service until the early 1940’s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here are some typical Santa Fe Watch Co. Ads:
January 1919 (http://photos24.flickr.com/37794386_98f240f709_o.jpg)
December 15, 1919 (http://photos22.flickr.com/37794385_eddcf29017_o.jpg)
April 1920 (http://photos22.flickr.com/37794387_a53398a66c_o.jpg)

[Rancher]

Kent would this have been true for both the 16s and the 12s. Did they ever produce a solid gold case? I think they did both hunting and open face is this correct? Bob

[Jerry Freedman]

Kent: I must tell you that at the 2000 national convention in Philadelphia I had a discussion with Bill Meggers on this subject. And at that time he allowed himself to show a little doubt about that statment on the Santa Fe cases. Why he did that, I do not know.

Jerry Freedman

[Kent]

Rancher & Jerry:

I'm only aware of Santa Fe-signed gold-filled cases, such as are offered in a Early 1920s catalog (http://photos31.flickr.com/37908015_02a33a8d67_o.jpg). This is not to say that in its early, or very last years Santa Fe didn't use un-signed cases, but such a fact is very difficult to establish.

First, obtaining specific details about Santa Fe (or Burlington) watches from their advertising or catalogs is essentially an exercise in futility. Second, looking at surviving examples doesn't help much, considering the amount of switching that has gone on for eighty years. The high volume of Illinois models having the same case screw locations (as those used on Santa Fe-labeled movements) helps hide the fact of a switch. One would have to know the provenance of a Santa Fe watch in an un-signed case and even then, it'd be hard to say if the case was replaced sixty years ago (1940s), or not.

Regarding the solid gold (or any other material) case, a signed example (that appeared genuine) would settle the question. Ed and I don't have any listed in our data base. Perhaps Russ Snyder has records of these.

Oh, Page 18 of the Early 1920s Catalog (http://photos21.flickr.com/37917270_b5c6eb3c2c_o.jpg) does list hunting-case models and Ed and I have some 16-size examples listed in our data base.

Edited to correct spelling error.

[Jerry Freedman]

Kent:

This is pure speculation on my part, but I have seen a number of Santa Fe Specials in cases of the proper style without extra case screw marks, and bearing notice about the two plates of gold etc., without the Santa Fe logo. This makes me wonder if they did not use some unsigned cases.

[Kent]

Jerry:

Although the concept runs counter to Santa Fe's well-demonstrated self-promotional behavior, it is certainly possible, and if there are of number of similar examples in the same style and make case, perhaps probable. Comparing unique case designs shown in Santa Fe literature (ads, catalogs, etc.) with examples in the same-looking, unsigned cases would support the belief. By "unique case designs" I mean something less generic than a medium-to-high stem, plain polish, screw back & bezel case. But then, the marking "... made with two plates ..." in the same style as the signed cases would be less generic. An inlaid enamel emblem in the manner offered by Santa Fe would also help support the belief.

Edited to correct spelling errors.

[Rancher]

Kent would your comments on Santa Fe also apply to Burlington Specials? Burlinton and Santa Fe were two different, unrelated, companies were they not? Bob

[Kent]

Bob:

Yes, what I've been saying applies to the Burlington Watch Co. as well as to the Santa Fe Watch Co. The two operated in a very, very similar fashion. A 1915 Burlington Ad (http://photos22.flickr.com/38054044_256502a1ca_o.jpg) in an issue of the Railway Conductor looks like the pattern for a 1920 Santa Fe Ad (http://photos22.flickr.com/37794387_a53398a66c_o.jpg) linked to earlier (by 1920, Burlington was selling 21-jewel watches). Burlington watches also passed inspection on some roads. To quote from page 71 of “Railroad Watches Identification and Price Guide,” Roy Ehrhardt & William Meggers, Jr., Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1995 (Still in print, see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com), or S. LaRose (http://www.slarose.com/cgi-bin/slarose/055219.html#)), <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Burlington Watch Co. watches were accepted in railroad time service by many railroads, notably the Union Pacific, until the early 1940’s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Along with most people, I've always believed that the two companies were totally separate, unconnected firms. However, there are occasional statements that the two were connected and were, in fact, controlled by the Illinois Watch Co. as a means of mass-marketing medium grade movements. Although there may be some truth in this (there is a certain logic to it), I've yet to see, or hear of, any documentation of this assertion.

[Rancher]

Kent was there a Santa Fe equivilent to the Sangamo grade Burlington? Bob

[Kent]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Kent was there a Santa Fe equivilent to the Sangamo grade Burlington? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, but according to page 254 of “American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide,” William Meggers, Jr. & Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1985 (still in print - see Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com)), there were 1,000 21-jewel Santa Fe Special, grade No. 561 movements that were adjusted to temperature, isochronism and five positions and 200 A. Lincoln grade that were also adjusted to temperature, isochronism and five positons.

[Fred Hansen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but according to page 254 of “American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide,” ... 200 A. Lincoln grade that were also adjusted to temperature, isochronism and five positons </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has anyone actually seen one of these A. Lincoln grade Santa Fe Specials?

There is a reference in the Meggers book to a photo in the 1979 Ehrhardt Indicator of one, and the watch is identified as an A. Lincoln in the 79 Indicator, but when the serial number is checked this watch actually looks up as a grade 806.

I do not believe I have ever seen a Santa Fe in the Lincoln grade but would be very interested to hear of one if there is out there.

Fred

[lak611]

Is there any place where the serial numbers of the Santa Fe Specials are listed and matched up with the date of manufacture?

Laura

[Fred Hansen]

Hi Laura -

The Illinois Santa Fe Specials will follow the same serial sequence as the regular Illinois Watch Co. production, so the serial number of your watch can be dated in this way. Your watch can also be identified as to grade, model, production figures, and other info.

The two best sources for this info are a a CD database by Russ Snyder that is distributed through NAWCC Chapter 149 (email Ch. 149 President Jon Hanson at jonontime@aol.com for details), and a 1985 book by the late Bill Meggers and Roy Ehrhardt ("Volume 2, American Pocket Watches, Illinois Watch Co.")

Both of these are wonderful sources of Illinois info, the Snyder database is fantastic and is a continuation of the research in the Meggers book and has countless updates and revisions as info has come in over the last 20+ years, but the book is full of terrific text and discussion of Illinois watches and is an exceptional reference for the Illinois collector. Both sources have many photos of Illinois movements both common and rare. I very strongly recommend both, but the book has been out of print for quite some time and takes some searching to find.

Fred