Lossier

[PJW]

I once saw a genuine looking ad from waltham shown in a ebay auction stating "16s cres. st. 6 positions, equipped w/lossier hairspring". Any merit to this.

KENT, have you got this one in your archives?

I have SN 26846583 marked 6 pos. but don't have a known lossier for comparison.
Is there a visual clue for detection?
Is the special curve in the overcoil?
What is considered to be the"inner terminal"?
Thanks, Paul

[PJW]

I once saw a genuine looking ad from waltham shown in a ebay auction stating "16s cres. st. 6 positions, equipped w/lossier hairspring". Any merit to this.

KENT, have you got this one in your archives?

I have SN 26846583 marked 6 pos. but don't have a known lossier for comparison.
Is there a visual clue for detection?
Is the special curve in the overcoil?
What is considered to be the"inner terminal"?
Thanks, Paul

[Jerry Treiman]

The Lossier inner terminal refers to the curve approaching the collet - the innermost coil of the hairspring. It is detectable by a noticeable space between the last complete coil and the collet (enough space for several coils of a standard hairspring).

[PJW]

Jerry,
I checked the collet area, it look's like about 1-1.5 more coils would fit easily.
Also the O.D. of spring and the overcoil seems to be larger than usual.
Thanks, Paul

[Tom McIntyre]

Another mark of the Lossier inner terminal curve hairspring is that Waltham marked it on the ratchet wheel. :smile:

Its actual presence on the watch, while important from a timekeeping perspective, is generally not as important as the marking.

i.e. if it has the hairspring and not the mark, there is little distinction. If it has the mark and not the hairspring, it needs to be restored.

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Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, and 174
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[PJW]

This watch has a plain ratchet wheel. Were marked wheels used on the cres st.
Ive never seen or heard of one on these before. Of course theyre likely uncommon and Ive not been around long. My exp. is limited to two seen,this one and an ebay item 1.5 yrs ago
Paul

[This message has been edited by PJW (edited 04-09-2002).]

[Tom McIntyre]

I have only seen the wheels on Vanguards. However, I rarely look at Crescent St. so I may not have noticed them there.

I think Waltham may have actually used the hairspring on lots of watches, but it would also be easy to add one to an existing watch that did not have it originally and there is no way to know what was originally there. The same is true of non-magnetic watches that are not marked. In both cases, the feature is interesting, but the lack of confirmation makes the value questionable.

If the Crescent St. were from a run that was documented as having a Lossier hairspring (or non-magnetic) then the presence of the material is required.

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Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, and 174
Pocket Horology Web (http://www.pocketwatch.org)
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Steve Maddox]

Like Tom, I can't recall seeing a Lossier Crescent Street, but I haven't really been looking for one either. I believe the models most frequently seen with the Lossier Inner Terminal Hairspring were the 23j 1899 and 1908 Vanguard models, but the feature was also used on a few other models as well.

The picture below is an image of a Riverside Maximus I recently acquired. It's a bit unusual in that it's a lever-set model, and unlike most Maximus models, it's adjusted to six (6) positions instead of the usual five (5). Of course, it also has the Lossier marked ratchet wheel and matching crown wheel, and it actually does have the Lossier inner terminal hairspring on the balance. I'm not a Maximus connoisseur, but I've been told that all Maximus models marked "Six Positions," have the Lossier feature, while those marked "Five Positions," have the well-known, highly damascened "Maximus" crown and ratchet wheels. http://members.aol.com/lrhorology/LossierMaximus.JPG


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Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas

[rrwatch]

Steve,
Your comments sent me looking through our database. The Lossier movements we have listed all do seem to carry the "6 pos." marking, in both LS and PS versions. However, most of the Model 1899 movements with the Lossier have the "Lossier Inner Terminal Hairspring" marking engraved on the typical Maximus fancy winding wheels. We only have two (yours and one other) that are noted to have the plain winding wheels, as on the Vanguard. Whether these wheels were 'borrowed' from a Vanguard movement or were made that way by Waltham I don't know. The Riverside Maximus Wind Indicators all seem to have the "6 Pos" and the "Lossier" on the winding wheels. The Model 1899 example in our database has the fancy wheel, all the Model 1908 examples have the "Lossier" on plain wheels.
We have no examples of Crescent St. movements with the Lossier hairspring in our database, but a number are marked "adjusted to 6 positions", as well as the more common 5 positions.

------------------
Ed Ueberall
NAWCC #49688



[This message has been edited by rrwatch (edited 04-09-2002).]

[Kent]

PJW:

The Crescent St.'s that are adjusted to 6 positions start at serial number 26,666,001. Only 4,999 more were built, the last being 26,968,000 (see the December 1996 NAWCC Bulletin, pages 815-6). The serial number lists tell us that this was about 1928-9. But that was the start of the depression and they were still being sold in 1932. Page 55 of the Fort Dearborn Watch and Clock Co. Catalog (390KB) (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/1932_ft_dearborn_lr.jpg) shows the specifications of these watches (those wishing a higher resolution copy, 1.5 MB, please contact me offline). Its interesting because while it offers the choice of Waltham's temperature immune Correlator hairspring and balance, and while it shows the Vanguard to have the Lossier Inner-Terminal Hairspring, it says nothing about the Crescent St. being available with the Lossier hairspring.

Ed has already reported upon what's in our data base and I've just added your watch to it. We don't doubt that you've seen an ad for a Crescent St. to be fitted with the Lossier hairspring, and some probably exist. However, since none of us can remember seeing one, and since the standard reference books; Ehrhardt & Meggers; Shugart, Engle & Gilbert; etc. fail to mention the A6P Crescent St.'s (yeah, A6P CS's are in the serial number list if you search for them), much less those with Lossier hairsprings, I'd say that those with the Lossier hairspring (and have marked winding wheels) are fairly uncommon (I don't want to try and define what "rare" is).

Kent :smile:

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 04-09-2002).]

[Julian Smith]

FYI,
S.LaRose has the Lossier ratchet wheels in their latest sale book.About 14 bucks per.
J Smith

[PJW]

Thanks to all for your efforts and sharing the gift of education!
I cannot remember who the seller was on ebay, but he usually includes ad scans and factory pics in his auctions (with blue borders for click link). If I come across him again Ill inquire.
Got this watch from Manny two years ago and always pondered about it, But now at ease.
Regards, Paul