Looking for info on Illinois pocket watch

[ledthrax]

Hi everyone, I stumbled across this board in my search for information on a pocket watch that I inherited from my grandfather. The movement says Illinois Watch Co., 17 jewels, adjusted, and the serial is: 4,056,xxx (not sure if people give the exact serial here or not). The case has: "Waranteed 14 K to assay" and BWC Co in a little "dog bone" looking shape and a serial of 6,801,xxx. The case has a very nice three-tone gold leaf design on the front and back sides. The case is all yellow gold with an even more yellow leaf and a redder leaf on both sides. I was just curious if someone knew about how old this watch is and its worth (I'd like to keep my renter's insurance up to date and value). Any help or where I can go for information would be great. Thanks.

[ledthrax]

Hi everyone, I stumbled across this board in my search for information on a pocket watch that I inherited from my grandfather. The movement says Illinois Watch Co., 17 jewels, adjusted, and the serial is: 4,056,xxx (not sure if people give the exact serial here or not). The case has: "Waranteed 14 K to assay" and BWC Co in a little "dog bone" looking shape and a serial of 6,801,xxx. The case has a very nice three-tone gold leaf design on the front and back sides. The case is all yellow gold with an even more yellow leaf and a redder leaf on both sides. I was just curious if someone knew about how old this watch is and its worth (I'd like to keep my renter's insurance up to date and value). Any help or where I can go for information would be great. Thanks.

[crsides]

The full serial # will help with the id. We cannot give values on this board as a matter of policy.

[Kent]

Hi ledthrax:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

The Illinois Watch Company was founded in 1870 as the Springfield Watch Co. of Springfield, IL. It turned out about five million watches before being sold to the Hamilton Watch Co. of Lancaster, PA, in 1928. An interesting Historical Account of the Illinois Watch Co. (http://www.knology.net/%7Eksinger/Illinois%20History.txt) is available, re-typed from the pages posted on Greg Frauenhoff's Website, as is an article on Jacob Bunn (http://members.aol.com/gfrauen10/celebrated.html), a president of the Illinois Watch Co., and son of one of the firm's founders. Brief descriptions and list prices of Illinois movements may be seen online in a 530 Kb scan of an 1887 Catalog Supplement (http://static.flickr.com/27/43570061_f24bcaeb4e_b.jpg).

Hamilton continued production in Springfield for several years and then moved operations to the Hamilton plant in Lancaster. Illinois watches continued to be produced as different designs from Hamilton watches until 1949 when the name was retired.

Information about Illinois watches may be found in "American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide," William Meggers, Jr. & Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press (http://www.hoapress.com), Kansas City, MO, 1985 (still in print), and in Russell W Snyder's Illinois Data Base CD (http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/4316035461/m/2401056421/r/8541060521#8541060521). Unfortunately, I don't have these references available to me at the moment, so I am unable to tell hyou more about your specific watch.

Then, there are Oldwatch.com's Illinois Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/Illinoisdate.html) and the PocketWatchSite's Illinois Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/illinoisserials.html) which are an online means for determining the approximate production date of Illinois pocket watches. In general, we think of serial number lists (not just for Illinois, but for other watch manufacturers as well) to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more.

Pictures and descriptions of some Illinois watches may be viewed online on

Pages 79 & 80 of the 1903 Oy Company Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1903_Oy_Company/m_index.html

Pages S1 – S8 of the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.com, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

B.W.C.Co. on the case stands for the Brooklyn Watch Case Co. (BWCCo.), which is discussed in the book, "History of the American Watch Case," Warren H. Niebling, Whitmore Publishing, Philadelphia, PA, 1971 (available on loan by mail to members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm)). Information on the company has also appeared in an article entitled "The Story of Hayden W. Wheeler," by Howard Lasser, NAWCC Bulletin, October 2005, 549-550. Notes based upon this article will appear in blue. Mr. Niebling describes the firm as starting in New York City in 1865 and moving to Brooklyn (at that time, a separate city, one of the country's largest) in 1866. Hayden W. Wheeler formed the Brooklyn Watch Case Co. on March 10, 1873 to devise methods for the mass production of watch cases. Joseph Fahys was one of the original directors of the company. The company started out by making gold and silver cases, but production of the silver cases eventually ceased. 18-karat and 14-karat cases were made in some quantity prior to the firm moving to Warren St, near Fourth Ave. in Brooklyn. Brooklyn made gold-filled cases, and 14-karat solid gold cases, but is perhaps best known for its line of Eagle solid 8K gold cases. However, Brooklyn offered a Variety of Grades (http://photos7.flickr.com/10756891_df9c6699ac_o.jpg), detailed below. Sometime in the late 1890s or early 1900s, Brooklyn was bought out by Joseph Fahys & Co. a major watch case company who had been listed in Brooklyn ads since 1896 as their selling agent. Joseph Fahys acquired Brooklyn prior to Wheeler's retirement in 1891, by which time the firm was producing 75,000 cases per year. Fahys continued using the Brooklyn name and trade marks.

A pair Brooklyn ads from 1909 give a glimpse into jewelry industry practices at the time. In a January 1909 Ad (http://photos7.flickr.com/10756893_b6ed974853_o.jpg), Brooklyn proclaimed itself the industry leader on account of U.S. government assays showing that Brooklyn used purer gold than its competitors in its 14 kt gold cases, even though all exceeded the requirements of the government's recently enacted stamping law. The fact that none of the case manufacturers' 14 kt gold cases actually assayed at 14.00 fineness or better didn't seem to bother the advertising department who proudly showed it to be 13.92. Perhaps there was some negative comment at the time because an October 1909 Brooklyn Ad (http://photos5.flickr.com/10756894_a8f64370b3_o.jpg) showed that five out of ten case manufacturers' cases assaying at 14.00 or better, with Brooklyn still in the lead at 14.29.

A number of Brooklyn case designs may be seen in an 1898 Brooklyn ad at:
elginwatches.org/scans/misc_ads/1898/m_brooklyn.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.com, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Brooklyn Gold Case Grades
14K (http://photos17.flickr.com/20253219_f9e50382f8_o.jpg): - - - - 14K solid gold.
Wheat (http://static.flickr.com/28/100192902_22a273039f_o.jpg): - - Double Stock - 14K outer layer, 8K inner layer. Discontinued in 1893 (http://photos6.flickr.com/10756892_e1f7be4ac3_b.jpg).
Granger (http://photos6.flickr.com/10756890_af831f1532_o.jpg): - Double Stock - 14K outer layer, 8K inner layer. Possibly introduced in 1889.
Eagle (http://static.flickr.com/28/100192902_22a273039f_o.jpg): - - - 8K solid gold. Discontinued in mid-to-late1890s.
A1 Eagle (http://photos17.flickr.com/20224485_3535e73e49_o.jpg): - - - 8K solid gold. Introduced in 1898.

As crsides indicated, and as it says in the upper left-hand corner of this page, we don’t provide timepiece values. However, once that you know the proper description of your watch, you can use a Google Search (http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en) to find similar watches offered by internet dealers, or on eBay, and see what they are selling for. Alternately, check the value in the "Complete Price Guide to Watches, No 26," C. Shugart, T. Engle and R. Gilbert, Cooksey Shugart Publications, Cleveland, TN, 2006. A new edition comes out each year in February. The book is available at libraries, at most major booksellers and online at the NAWCC Gift Shop (http://www.nawcc.org/giftshop/americart/bk_watch.htm). The No 24 (the 2004) edition is shown, but contact them and ask for No. 26. Condition matters!

You should check with your insurance company. Many times, watches are considered to be jewelry and require an expensive rider to cover them.

Good luck,