BALANCE PROBLEMS

[ljrusso]

Actually I am rather proud of myself. For the first time I took a watch totally apart (thank you Donald de Carle) Cleaned it, oiled it and put it back together. I KNOW it will run (how accurately is natrually another question) BUT: The balance does not spin. I might add it did not spin all that much before I took the watch apart. Few turns then stopped

A few points:
It is a low grade Illinois.
http://web14.s2.webspaceprofis.de/american-pocket-watches/illinois2.jpg
16-size, 11-jewel, Grade 172 Model 4 dated from 1903 (thank you Russ!)

1.) The balance staff appears to be ok. It is not dull, broken, bent or similar.
2.) The ends of the staff are sitting correctly.
3.) The fork moves as should when I manually move the balance.
4.) The balance is not resting on the pallet cock
5.) There are no kinks in the spring.
6.) I removed the spring from the balance cock.

So what could be the problem?

Thanks

Louis

[This message was edited by ljrusso on March 05, 2004 at 20:28.]

[ljrusso]

Actually I am rather proud of myself. For the first time I took a watch totally apart (thank you Donald de Carle) Cleaned it, oiled it and put it back together. I KNOW it will run (how accurately is natrually another question) BUT: The balance does not spin. I might add it did not spin all that much before I took the watch apart. Few turns then stopped

A few points:
It is a low grade Illinois.
http://web14.s2.webspaceprofis.de/american-pocket-watches/illinois2.jpg
16-size, 11-jewel, Grade 172 Model 4 dated from 1903 (thank you Russ!)

1.) The balance staff appears to be ok. It is not dull, broken, bent or similar.
2.) The ends of the staff are sitting correctly.
3.) The fork moves as should when I manually move the balance.
4.) The balance is not resting on the pallet cock
5.) There are no kinks in the spring.
6.) I removed the spring from the balance cock.

So what could be the problem?

Thanks

Louis

[This message was edited by ljrusso on March 05, 2004 at 20:28.]

[HenryB]

When you move the pallet fork, do the teeth engage and move the escapement wheel?

Not sure what you mean on item 6, you removed the spring from the balance cock. The spring needs to be on the shaft and the spring stud in the balance cock.

Release the tension from the movement(might want to pull out the balance shaft), then put the balance shaft in the unwound movement, and check your alignment on the hairspring. If you got the shaft right, nudge the balance with a toothpick, and it should spin. Once it spins free, then wind it.

[BrianC]

Louis,
Take the pallet out of the watch, take the hairspring off the balance. Put the balance back in the watch and see if it turns freely. If not, you may have a jewel problem.
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

[doug sinclair]

Louis,

Did the balance wheel act the same before you did the cleaning? Does it act the same face up as face down? How did you go about cleaning it? What solution did you use? Did you use an ultrasonic or centrifugal cleaning machine?

There could be a number of problems.

1./ You might have a balance pivot with a damaged tip: i. e. dropped face up or face down so the pivot tip "rivetted" slightly. Doesn't take much. Check with a 10x loupe.

2./ Badly magnetized.

3./ Cleaning doesn't always remove all the grunge from the jewel hole. Did you use pegwood on the jewels?

4./ Too little endshake in the balance staff. Is the balance cock screw tight?

5./ Look for tiny little threads (lint) etc. which are easy to miss. Check with a 10x loupe.

6./ Oversized timing washers on the balance screws dragging.

7./ You had the hairspring off. Is the collet pressed onto the staff all the way? Maybe dragging on the balance cock?

8./ Roller table interfering with the pallet fork? As was suggested, remove the pallets, put the balance wheel and cock back on and try it. If inconclusive, take the hairspring off and try it again.

Please let us know what you find.

Doug S.

[ljrusso]

Hi All!
Thanks for all comments!!!

Henry: the escapement was / is engaged. I took the spring off for cleaning and then put it back on.

Gordo: yes

Brian: see below my comments to Doug (I took both of yours advice)

Doug:
Prior to my attempts the balance only turned maybe 2 times then stopped. (this in all positions)
I used an ultrasonic cleaner. My main cleaning fluid is something available here in Germany. It is called Elma Cleaning concentrate and is for cleaning disassembled watches. Directly after the ultrasonic I rinsed brieflly (basically just to get off the extra cleaning solution) in destilled water then rinsed in "Superol Special. This is a ready to use water free rinsing solution for watches.

To detail your questions:

1.) This I cannot comment to as I do not have a 10x loupe. (I had one but lost it about 7 weeks ago at an antique show)

2.) I demagnistized tools and parts as I went along so I think I got this covered.

3.) No I did not use pegwood on the jewels.

4.) According to the book (de carle) and my estimates the endshake is ok. The balance cock screw may very well have been too tight. I fooled around with this to test it and found that this is definately an important consideration.

5.) Checked and found none!

6.) I do not understand this!

7.) made sure the second time around that it was pressed in well. No.

8.) See below:

I took the advice and removed the pallets and put the balance wheel and cock back on. The balance wheel spun freely and I had to actually stop it manually as I got tired of waiting. (It spun like a champ.) I took this "area" apart again. Re-cleaned, checked for lint and re-oiled. I put it all back together and and heeded the points above. Now it gets interesting. The watch actually runs BUT:

Only face down and usually for about 30 minutes. Sometimes though only for a few minutes. When face up it stops immediatley. On the side it runs for about 20 seconds then stops. Sometimes the balance seems to "hang" but with a light "shake" or 2 or 3 it frees up and spins.

When I first got this "test" watch. The balance spun maybe 2 times then stopped. I would like to add that this was a "carried" watch. The case has so much wear through it is clear that this watch served its purpose.

The watch wants to run but there is a problem somewhere. Any ideas?


Regards

Louis

[BrianC]

Louis,
Check to see if the hairspring is rubing anywhere. Check to see if the guard pin is rubing the roller table. Check to see if the roller jewel is loose or in crooked.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

[Smudgy]

It sounds like a problem with the upper balance staff pivot. Perhaps check that the endstone is intact, seated properly, and not pitted. You should also get yourself a 10X loupe, if possible, and check that the hole jewel is not chipped and the condition of the pivot. A small chip on the hole jewel that is difficult to see could cause this problem (and will also score the balance staff). If the balance pivot is scored badly you may be able to feel it with your fingernail, but only if it is very bady scored. You may also be able to tell if the staff is mushroomed if you run the pivot across the back of your fingernail. The 10X lens is really the best for checking, and is useful for a lot of other things. If you plan on spending any time with this pasttime a good loupe is essential. Hope this helps.