Question about button or nail set waltham cases

[Luca]

I've run across a case that is marked 'am watch co waltham mass' and 'warranted coin silver'. This is an 18 size hunt case and has a 'button' that protrudes out of the side near 4 o'clock.

Now this case had a run of the mill swiss movement in it when I got it. I think I do see the hint of another case screw mark.

Would / could they have made cases for Swiss and other manuf. movements? Or is it more likely this contained something like an 1870 model waltham?

Luca

[Dr. Jon]

A lot of jewelers and casemakers had extensive tooling for case modification. They often cased Swiss watches and even on occasion some English ones.

Your case may well have been adapted by a local jeweler. Also there were several American case makers who did a lot of cases for Swiss items and even then there were tariff favoring casing foreign watches here.

Swiss watches used pin setting for a long time. Patek had the controlling patent on stem setting and most others used pin setting.

American watches used a different stem setting method and were not as influence by Adrian Philippe's patent. If your case has no threads for a stem spring in the pendant it could well be original.

[Tom McIntyre]

If it is a marked Waltham 18 size case and has a button, it is most likely for an 1870 model. I would not be totally surprised to see an 1857 model in a button set case, but do not recall ever seeing one. Here is a close-up of the mechanism on an 1870 model (http://www.awco.org/AWCo/Other/1870button/1870button.htm).

http://www.awco.org/AWCo/Other/1870button/setting_small.jpg (http://www.awco.org/AWCo/Other/1870button/setting.jpg)

[Luca]

I'm leaning towards it being modified but here's some pics - note: I took out stem and crown and case spring latch as I was playing around with it. It will fit an 1870 model movement I have but not sure the button setting is right for it due to how it works - you can see in the pics. Also note all the extra holes at bezel edge on opposite side...what would these have been for?

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/button3.jpg
http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/button1.jpg
http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/button2.jpg
http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/button4.jpg
http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/button5.jpg
http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/button7.jpg

Thanks,

Luca

[mikeh]

Luca,

I think your case is fine. It looks virtually identical to mine.

[Luca]

Mike,
Is your case for an 1870 model? Does the setting look similar from the inside as well?

Luca

[mikeh]

Luca,

Yes, mine is an 1870.

The only thing I notice about your case that is different is the little notch in the bezel that would be at about 11 o'clock. Mine doesn't have that, but as I said in my email, my bezel is not original. The other two notches appear to match up to the screws for the lift spring and catch spring so maybe your screws stand a little proud.

Just curious why don't you think your movement would work? What does the button mechanism on your movement look like? Mine is a flat piece of blue steel that protrudes from the edge of the movement at about a 45 degree angle.

[mch]

The holes look to be for case spring screws. It appears to be missing the spring for the cover latch?

Mike

[Luca]

Hi,
I took out the spring and one of the screws. One screw for another part of the latch spring is missing and has basically a bent pin holding it in place (work to be done there).

Here are some pics of the setting area of my 1870 movement - hope they look correct. :rolleyes:
The movement is in pieces as it needs cleaning and some rust removal.

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/1870button4.jpg
http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/1870button1.jpg
http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/1870button3.jpg
http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/1870button2.jpg

Mike - I've discovered my movement wasn't fitting in just right due to someone having bent part of the rim of the case near where the case latch protrudes...so I'm going to try and put it right and I expect the movement will sit slightly deeper and perhaps the button and setting part of the movement will match up.

Luca

[mikeh]

Rats! I was hoping you wouldn't work for you. :wink:

Your button is slightly different. Here is mine: 1870 Button (http://www.thewatchpocket.com/misc/IMG_0227a.jpg)

[Luca]

Hmm, that's actually quite different. :confused: Maybe mine isn't the type I thought it was. Or maybe it was modified. Now I'm not as confident it will work but I'm not giving up yet. I'm hoping someone else will weigh in who's seen similar.

Luca

[Tom McIntyre]

Mike's movement is button set. Luca's movement is nail set. They differ only in the shape of the slider piece.

There is a paper in the Bulletin pipeline that shows all the setting mechanisms. It may come out this year.

1870 models come with KW/KS, Button Set, Nail Set, Sliding Lever (like 1868 model), Rocking Lever (like 1872 model) and the Fitch's patent variation on the Nail Set. Note that the two lever setting mechanisms look like the 1868 and 1872 from the outside, but are different inside

[Luca]

Thanks Tom. So a nail set --- what would that look like in terms of the case...the bezel and such? And guess I'll have to rethink things as I don't want to modify case or movement as that just wouldn't be historically correct.

Luca

[Luca]

Never mind on the example Tom as I've gone to your site and taken a look at it.

I guess I'll get my movement in order, put the case in order and hope I can find a match for both.

Luca

[Tom McIntyre]

That's great. I thought you could figure out that it might be on the web site. I could post the pictures from the article on the web site, but I had expected it to be published sooner than it appears it will be.

There are some under the dial pictures of essentially the same mechanism with the 1873 model under the "AWCo>Small Wonders" link.

Waltham was doing a lot of experimenting with setting mechanisms in the 1870 to 1875 time frame.

[Tom McIntyre]

I looked over my 1870 presentation and decided it did not give away too much from the pending article. If you want to see lots of pictures of the 1870 patents and implementations, you can see them here (http://www.awco.org/Presentations/MadeForRR.htm).

[Luca]

Unfortunately Tom I use a Mac and IE hasn't been supported for awhile. I will go to the library and check it out on their computers. It is big of you to post this now and I can't wait to see it! Now, what I really want is a nail set case and a button set movement. :smile:

Luca

[Tom McIntyre]

There is a free PowerPoint viewer for the Mac. You can download the .pps file with any browser and view the file off-line.

[Luca]

Hi Tom,
I downloaded the free TonicPoint Viewer which I recommend highly. It worked like a charm with your .pps file.

The presentation is GREAT and very informative. Lots of details I was not aware of. The article should be a smashing success!

Luca

[mikeh]

Tom,

I'm with Luca. Very nice and very interesting presentation. Thanks!

Now that I look closely at the pictures, it looks like there's something different with Luca's slide. His turns down at the end, away from the dial and toward the back of the movement, just the opposite or your watch. However, if he turned it over, the angle at the inner edge would be wrong and wouldn't operate the setting mechanism properly. I also notice that the outer edge of yours closely follows the contour of the plate and his seems to be a little off.

If I'm right it's possible that Luca's slide has been replaced with a homemade part. It is even possible that it was a button set movement originally, the part got lost or broken, and someone made a substitute.

Luca - what is your serial number? Maybe it will provide a hint when compared to known examples.

[Luca]

Serial no. of my movement is 501181. I'll have to look closer at what Mike's talking about.

Luca