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HUDD
07-13-2009, 07:03 AM
I recently acquired on Ebay a Swiss imitation of an American 18s hunter cased pocket watch. The movement is marked "Swiss" on the balance bridge, so not a fake in the real sense of the word. The model is "Niagara", so obviously intended for the American market. It is a very nasty cheap movement, lever set, with cylinder escapement and dummy timing screws. It runs erratically. My real reason for purchasing was the beautiful GF hunter case. Complete with no brassing and a beautifully engraved American loco on the rear. Although it looks like an American style case I can't identify the logo ? An arm and a hammer in a diamond shaped lozenge. Can anyone help identify this case ?

Oh, and before I get accused of switching and worse, I am a collector of American 18s pocket watches from around the turn of the last century. I live in the UK where access to these watches is limited. So are my funds, which means I usually buy wrecks or non runners of higher grade Hamilton and Illinois watches to restore. I carry out all my own repairs using contemporary tools and materials and yes I do try to strike a balance between restoration and conservation. I also keep full records of the work I carry out to each watch. This is for my information, and should I sell a watch to fund my hobby, which is rare, then full information of what I have done goes with it.

I will not buy from a seller who is clearly parting out perfectly good watches for enhanced profit, nor will I buy a movement for parts if it looks at all restorable. In fact, many parts watches I have bought in the past have turned out to be too good for that purpose and I have restored / repaired them and added them to my collection.

The watch ( movement ) in question here is to my mind absolute rubbish and not worth saving for posterity. Some of you may disagree. Your prerogative. The movement will sit in a drawer and if anyone wants it. Email me and it's yours for free. The case however will house my recently acquired Hamilton 931 that arrived in a scap base metal OF defiance case.

I apologise for going on at great length here, but recent threads on "switching" etc; have IMHO gone on ad-infinitum and resulted in more of a slanging match than a frank and fair exchange of views. This has made me nervous about posting here in future. I am not a purist. I view these watches as works of art and engineering marvels of an age gone by. They deserve to be repaired and put back into use. They should be there for generations to come so they can be appreciated. Even if they contain parts salvaged from another watch and even if the case is not original. Provided it is appropriate in style and age.

Hudd

Steven Thornberry
07-13-2009, 07:41 AM
Possibly Philadelphia Watch Case Co. See here (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Philadelphia+Case+Co.&highlight=philadelphia+watch+case+company)

Kent
07-13-2009, 07:49 AM
Hi HUDD:

Your watch case is a Perfection grade case, and it was made by the Philadelphia Case Co. Follow the Wiki link to Philadelphia, scroll down to the bottm of the page (below the table) and check our the linked-to catlog there, especially pages 2 & 4.

I do consider the "Niagara" movement to be a Swiss fake, regardless of being marked "Swiss," especially so after you commented that it had "dummy timing screws." Would you please post pictures of the movement and dial so that they could be added to the Examples of Swiss fakes (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Swiss+Fake&#Examples_of_Swiss_Fakes) in the linked-to Wiki article?

P.S. I see that Steven typed faster than I did.

Thanks,

Jon Hanson
07-13-2009, 09:21 AM
[QUOTE=HUDD;387124]I recently acquired on Ebay a Swiss imitation of an American 18s hunter cased pocket watch. The movement is marked "Swiss" on the balance bridge, so not a fake in the real sense of the word. The model is "Niagara", so obviously intended for the American market. It is a very nasty cheap movement, lever set, with cylinder escapement and dummy timing screws. It runs erratically. My real reason for purchasing was the beautiful GF hunter case. Complete with no brassing and a beautifully engraved American loco on the rear. Although it looks like an American style case I can't identify the logo ? An arm and a hammer in a diamond shaped lozenge. Can anyone help identify this case ?

Oh, and before I get accused of switching and worse, I am a collector of American 18s pocket watches from around the turn of the last century. I live in the UK where access to these watches is limited. So are my funds, which means I usually buy wrecks or non runners of higher grade Hamilton and Illinois watches to restore. I carry out all my own repairs using contemporary tools and materials and yes I do try to strike a balance between restoration and conservation. I also keep full records of the work I carry out to each watch. This is for my information, and should I sell a watch to fund my hobby, which is rare, then full information of what I have done goes with it.

I will not buy from a seller who is clearly parting out perfectly good watches for enhanced profit, nor will I buy a movement for parts if it looks at all restorable. In fact, many parts watches I have bought in the past have turned out to be too good for that purpose and I have restored / repaired them and added them to my collection.

The watch ( movement ) in question here is to my mind absolute rubbish and not worth saving for posterity. Some of you may disagree. Your prerogative. The movement will sit in a drawer and if anyone wants it. Email me and it's yours for free. The case however will house my recently acquired Hamilton 931 that arrived in a scap base metal OF defiance case.

I apologise for going on at great length here, but recent threads on "switching" etc; have IMHO gone on ad-infinitum and resulted in more of a slanging match than a frank and fair exchange of views. This has made me nervous about posting here in future. I am not a purist. I view these watches as works of art and engineering marvels of an age gone by. They deserve to be repaired and put back into use. They should be there for generations to come so they can be appreciated. Even if they contain parts salvaged from another watch and even if the case is not original. Provided it is appropriate in style and age.

Hudd[/QUOT

This appears as a "good" switch, from a terrible Swiss to an American case and movement marriage!:D

HUDD
07-13-2009, 12:37 PM
Thank you Steven, Kent and Jon

Definitely the Perfection 734 !! Many thanks. I wonder how this Swiss movement got into a Philadelphia case ? Were the movements imported and then cased in America ? seems the likely answer. Anyway, here are pics of the offending article.

Hudd

Jon Hanson
07-13-2009, 01:17 PM
Thank you Steven, Kent and Jon

Definitely the Perfection 734 !! Many thanks. I wonder how this Swiss movement got into a Philadelphia case ? Were the movements imported and then cased in America ? seems the likely answer. Anyway, here are pics of the offending article.

Hudd

Yes, frequently we see Swiss in American cases, even Pateks and Lange watches!

Kent
07-13-2009, 01:30 PM
Thanks Hudd:

I've added the pictures to the list of Examples of Swiss Fakes (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Swiss+Fake&#Examples_of_Swiss_Fakes).

Tom Huber
07-13-2009, 07:16 PM
HUDD, My experience with the Arm & Hammer marked cases is that they are lacquered brass, not gold filled. Still nice, solid cases.

Tom

HUDD
07-14-2009, 02:36 AM
Jon I'm not surpised really. I'm not a fan of Swiss cylinder escapement watches, and is these watches the Swiss flooded the UK market with at the end of the 19th century. It caused the demise of the UK watch industry which was a pity really as the UK made "English lever" watches were far superior, but more expensive to produce. Looks like the Swiss tried the same ploy with the American market, but thankfully were less successful.

Tom The catalogue referred to by Steven and Kent describes this as a gold plated rather than a lacquered brass or gold filled case. I'm sure that is the case ( sorry for the phun ! ). I'm guessing since a gold plated case is cheaper than gold filled according to the catalogue, that this means less gold content ? I would imagine a lacquered brass case would be cheaper still ?

Hudd

Jon Hanson
07-14-2009, 09:47 AM
Agreed--the finish helped the watch retain the plating.

Most plated cases wear very poorly; I have ones with the gold late worn off fully to the brass with "crispy" insides plating intack.

HUDD
07-15-2009, 04:01 AM
Hi Jon

Yes, you can tell this case isn't the same quality as a G W Ladd or even a Crescent case. I wear most of my watches in turn, simply because I can't wear wrist watches ( my wrist swells after about 3 days irrespective of the case or strap material ). I don't think I will be wearing this one though. I'm sure it managed to stay in very good condition because the poor quality movement probably gave out early on so the watch was set aside in a drawer for years.

Hudd