1926 Illinois and dial question

[Hoos]

I just got my third watch - a 1926 Illinois with a great art nouveau design. I really liked the look and got it for a very good price. All of which I took into account given the condition of the dial.

There are some discussions on dial cleaning in a couple of other subforums, and I'll give those a try. But this looks like it might be mildew damage, so I'm not very hopeful.

In the event that I can't clean it:

1. Is this something a watchmaker could clean?

2. Alternatively, is there a source for vintage Illinois dials that might have a replacement dial that matches this?

Any thoughts/suggestions appreciated. Replacing the dial is a last resort. Thank you.

[Jon Hanson]

I suggest to either clean it or have the work done by a professional.

Keep it ORIGINAL and do not SWITCH!:bang:

[Jim Carroll]

The dial you have is from a Manhiemer case, here is a link from Global Horology Board of a watch from the same run as yours. I don’t believe the case you have is original. The Manheimer cases with dials were used to convert hunter movements into open faced watches.

These Manheimer cases may have been fitted at the factory as they seem to be fitted to batches of watches that come from the same run. They also show up in grades 410 and A Lincoln 21 Jewel model.

http://www.global-horology.com/GHMB/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4175

[Hoos]

The dial you have is from a Manhiemer case, here is a link from Global Horology Board of a watch from the same run as yours. I don’t believe the case you have is original. The Manheimer cases with dials were used to convert hunter movements into open faced watches.

These Manheimer cases may have been fitted at the factory as they seem to be fitted to batches of watches that come from the same run. They also show up in grades 410 and A Lincoln 21 Jewel model.

http://www.global-horology.com/GHMB/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4175

Jim,

Thanks for the reply and the link. Now that's a beautiful watch. I'm not hoping to get the dial that pristine, but clean enough to read would be nice. Picked up a couple of erasers to try and work with.

I bolded the statement that confused me. The inside of the case back is etched with the Manheimer name and logo and the case design (in addition to the watch dial) match the photos in that link. The only differences seem to be the hands (mine are not gold) and the crown on the stem, but the bows are identical.

So I understand the statement that Manheimer cases/dials were used to convert hunter movements, but I'm not sure how that means the case may not be original. I'm OK with that, just trying to understand what it means.

Thank you for the info and any other light that can be shed.

Edited to add photo.

[rschussel]

Brent
Most of the Mannhiem cases were used for high grade 21j or 23j Illinois.

I have only seen one other Illinois that was a 17j in this case.Thats why the question about it being all orginal.My guess is that yours was original also.

Bob

[John Cote]

Soap and water and a tooth brush will not hurt your dial if you are careful. I am not sure it it will make it look a lot better but take the dial off and use a soft brush and dish washing detergent in water. Solvents or ammonia based cleaners will hurt a metal dial. When moisture has gotten to a metal dial as it has with this one nothing will make it look perfect and most of the time when you clean it up you will reveal some actual damage to the surface but I doubt you could make it look worse with soap and water.

[Jim Carroll]

Brent,
When I first looked at your images I believed the front bezel was fitted (I had on the wrong glasses:=) looking at the image with the bezel fitted, the case is quite correct. Good luck with the dial cleaning.

Jim

[Hoos]

Thank you all for all the helpful info. Jim - Your glasses were probably fine. The first photo was without the crystal - to show the extent of dirt on the dial. I should have mentioned that and apologize for the omission.

This will probably be a job for the watchmaker (waiting to get back my Elgin to see how that went). I have not yet disassembled a watch and need to find a cheap one to practice on. And, while this one was cheap, I bought it because it appealed to me to use. So don't want to practice on this one.

In addition to the dial, it definitely needs cleaning and a new crystal. It gained 4 minutes in 24 hours of running and a couple of the movement gears look rusty - adding to the assumption that the watch spent time in a damp atmosphere and the dial may be mildewed.

[Tom McIntyre]

I am with John Cote on this one. Washing the dial in soapy ice water is the best approach and the one Waltham recommended. You will have a hard time finding a watch maker that will not want to just have it refinished.

I, personally, think the dial looks pretty nice right now.

[Hoos]

Well, good news and bad news.

Since I wasn't comfortable disassembling the watch, I didn't want to try washing it.

So, I used the artgum eraser. Which actually did a pretty good job of cleaning things up (can't post a picture now). It's still stained, but it's better looking and the numbers are more legible. It will be even better with a new crystal - this one is so cloudy, that it really adds another layer of obscurity.

Now the bad news: the "Illinois" on the dial didn't take too well to artgum. I noticed (thank goodness) that the "Il" were missing after a couple of passes with the eraser. :mad: After that, the eraser was only used around the border and didn't seem to affect the numbers or the outside border of the dial.

Well, I guess that's my first lesson learned and it makes me sad.

Alternatively, I found a 1920 Elgin as a good practice watch for cleaning/repairing: it was cheap, it's fairly common, it runs for a few minutes at a time, only. And it's a big one. Now, just have to begin acquiring the tools while I'm reading up on repairing, etc.

If I ever get my NAWCC membership info, I'll be hitting the lending library! :D

[Jon Hanson]

You should have taken the good advice here--many times watches are made worse than improved!:mysad:

If folks want better condition, BUY a BETTER watch! (i) :wink:

[Hoos]

I really did not need my mistake rubbed in. In fact I did research this - the little I could find in the watch repair forum. Artgum was recommended by several people there.

I admitted it and I regret it.

I have more issues with meaningless, nyah-nyah-nyah posts that I do with the reality that I did damage to the watch dial. But then the first response to my question didn't answer anything that I sincerely asked in earnest.

[Jon Hanson]

Well, the folks here in the know spend their time to help, and this is a good lesson to all.............you know, the old horse and the water story!

ADD: MOST of the time, simple old solutions are best for preservation!

Tagline: Mr Moderator--possibly A DON'T needs to be stickied somewhere here on this MB to save pocket watches!