Waltham Vanguard 23J (1948-49)

[tn4lee]

i'm a newbie at this because my wife and I were just given a couple of pocket watches by an elderly lady friend. The watch of interest is a Waltham Vanguard 23 Jewels, Lever set, 8 P railroad watch. Its serial number indicates that it was produced in 1948-1949. When searching the Complete Price Guide to Watches (No. 26) I have been unable to find a value/listing for the 8 Position watch. Most listings were for 5 P. Is this watch not listed because there haven't been enough of them sold recently to establish a value, or are they so plentiful that they don't have a value worth illustrating? Thanks for your help.
Terry Nelson

[Dr. Jon]

The reason it is not listed is that they never made an 8 position watch. I am almost certain it is an 8 adjustment watch which is usually 5 positions, heat cold and isocronism.

The number of postions just means that after adjusting the rates were within specificatioon over the 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 64 positions listed. One cannot adjust a watch one position at a time. It was possible for a watch to run well in 5 but not 6 positions but this was a very rare occurence. Waltham like Hamilton and Elgin eventually followed Illinois into 6 position but it does not make much difference to most watches.

The very late Vanguards are high qualtiy althought they lack the eye candy of their lavishly decorated predecessors.

The very late Vanguards are fairly common at least in relation to teh number of collectors who want them. Also don;t take the price guides too literally. A lot depends on condition, especially for failry common, late examples.

Bottom line, it's a 5 or 6 position watch

[tn4lee]

Dr. Jon,
Thanks for your response. You are indeed right...as a novice I easily overlooked the statement within the watch that says "8 Adjustments", not "positions". I learned something today worth knowing. Appreciate it.
Terry

[tn4lee]

Dr Jon,
Along the same line, is it possible to determine the model number by correlating the serial number and production date as well as the obvious features of the watch? (If not, I have to homework to do on learning the components of watches). When I compare the works of the watch with the photos in the Complete Guide to Watches I come up short. I'm certain that it's not practical to attempt to show photos of every model of the Waltham Vanguard for model determination.

[StanJS]

Terry,

Here is an earlier discussion of these watches:

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=35178&highlight=Vanguard

At the end I tell what I paid for mine. There is no shortage of these watches.

I think the "Price Guide" line is the 16s 23J Model 1912 Press Jewels.

Cheers,
Stan

[Robert Sweet]

Below is a link to Waltham (23J) Vanguard from a 1952 catalog that indicate the 8 adjustments were 6 to position and 2 to temperature.

I'm not sure why they didn't mention isochronism for the 9th adjustment.

If you could post a image of your watch movement it would be very helpful.

Robert

http://elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1952/m_10_waltham_1623.html

[tn4lee]

I will try to get some photos next week. The image in the ad (link) is identical to the watch that we received...except it was a 1948-49 model. Thanks, Robert.

[Kent]

Hi Terry (tn4lee):

You may find the following Wiki articles useful in understanding pocket watches and the terms that are used in discussing them:
Movement Type
Pocket Watch Dials
Pocket Watch Jewels
Pocket Watch Regulator
Setting Watch Hands
Watch Adjustment
Watch Case
Watch Grades
Watch Models
Watch Runs
Watch Size

Your watch is a grade No. 1623 Vanguard (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Waltham+Watches#Grade_No__1623_ Vanguard), a watch developed in the mid-to-late 1930s. It was the last railroad watch made by Waltham and it was universally accepted for use in railroad time service. There were hundreds of thousands of these made, with around 175,000 built during WWII alone.

Its a nice watch to have as a representative sample of the apex of American railraod pocket watch development.

Good luck with it,

[Kent]

Below is a link to Waltham (23J) Vanguard from a 1952 catalog that indicate the 8 adjustments were 6 to position and 2 to temperature.

I'm not sure why they didn't mention isochronism for the 9th adjustment.

If you could post a image of your watch movement it would be very helpful.

Robert

http://elginwatches.org/scans/non_elgin_ads/1952/m_10_waltham_1623.html

Robert has apparently forgotten a 1954 Waltham ad that he once found that claimed the 9th adjustment to be isochronism. However, No. 1623 Vanguard watches marked "9 Adjustments" have yet to be seen and it is doubtful that any actually have this marking.

[Robert Sweet]

Robert has apparently forgotten a 1954 Waltham ad that he once found that claimed the 9th adjustment to be isochronism.

Gosh Kent, that was over 2 weeks ago. :)http://mb.nawcc.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Robert

[Robert Sweet]

Kent,

The ad below shows the 23J Vanguard with 8 adjustments, 6 to position, and 1 each to temperature and isochronism.

So it depends on who designed the ad as to the number of adjustments and how each is assigned.

Thanks for sharing this nice ad.

Robert

[Robert Sweet]

FYI,

(excerpt) from the E. & J. Swigart Co. "Illustrated Manual of American Watch Movements", 1952.

"Waltham Vanguard, 16 Size, Model A, Grade 1623, 23 Jewels"
"The First Movement in this Model, May, 1944 was serial number 32,054,001".

Robert

[tn4lee]

Thanks to all of you for the information you have provided. I've visited a watchmaker since beginning this endeavor and have enjoyed learning about the watch....the bezel is on it's way to William White for a new crystal as we speak. Then, to the watchmaker for a good cleaning....I appreciate everyone's assistance and information...Terry