What kind of pocket watch dial is this? One picture included.

[Kim G.]

Tuesday
July 7, 2009


What kind of pocket watch dial is this?


Thanks for your help,
Kim Gerard
NAWCC Member #0169537

[Veritas]

I believe this is called a Montgomery dial.

[Kent]

Hi Kim:

Actually, it is not quite correct to call this a Montgomery dial (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Montgomery_D ials). Besides the fact it lacks the 6th hour figure, there is no defined (patented) Montgomery dial bearing 13-24 hour figures. The best description is a marginal minute (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Marginal_Min ute_Dials), Canadian dial (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Canadian_Dia ls).

Whatever you call it, its a nice dial. What watch is it on?

[Kim G.]

Tuesday
July 7, 2009

Kent,
Thanks for the information. I was going nuts trying to research it. There are so many variations and names, it was confusing. I couldn't find any that had the 18 on the sub dial and the minute numbers together.

Anyways, it is on a 1907 Elgin, Grade 313, Model 7, 15 Jewels, 16 Size movement with serial number 13372445. Unfortunately it is missing a lot of parts.

Kim Gerard
NAWCC Member #0169537

[Jon Hanson]

Kim, there has been a BIG rush to collect these types of dials. Folks believe the dial "extras" add to the watch.

[Hoos]

I recently picked up a watch with a similar dial. Not much info on it beyond knowing it's an Illinois movement and has a similar dial (see below). The name on the dial appears to be "Malle".

I'm curious as to the purpose of the dial, if any. Were they made for specific trades/jobs or the military? I don't see many people seeing much use in a 24-hour dial, so it is something of curiosity.

Any info on the history or marketing of these 24-hour dials?

Found the answer in the Wiki: Canadian Dial (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Canadian_Dia ls). Interesting.

[Veritas]

It,s odd to me the name Canadian dial.The only ones who would and did use 24 hour time is the millitary and the rail roads.

[49stude63]

I have two watches with these types of dials, both Elgins, both metal and both being patent neutered Monty dials (missing the 6). You don't see a lot of double sunk porc. dials and the fact it is on a lower jewel count movement is a bit odd. They are do add a touch to a nice RR movement since they are a bit unusual.

[John Cote]

Both Waltham and Elgin had dials like this and also dials like this and dials like this but with the 6. Here is a similar Waltham dial but with the 6 in the seconds bit. I also have a similar but bolder Elgin dial but I can't find a picture. This dial is from a Canadian Pacific RR marked movement...so I guess it is Canadian.

http://www.johncotephotography.com/Watches/WalCPR-Dial.jpg

[sderek]

Here's mine. It's on an 18s Elgin 7j serial number 19765020.

[John Cote]

Anybody have a dial with an 18 and a 6 in the seconds bit? :D

[crsides]

18 & 6

[Hoos]

Wouldn't the dial that John Cotes posted be a Montgomery Dial (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Montgomery_D ials)?

Not trying to be a trouble maker - just clarity for my own education.

Also, the dials other owners have posted would be what I would think (don't know) would be dials for RR watches. Whereas the one I have seems to be more "decorative" - if that's the right term. It also doesn't have numerical minutes around the outer rim, as do the other watches posted.

So, while I can understand the design for RR watches or military watches, having it on what appears to be a watch for personal use (retail sale [?]) just seems kind of odd.

I'll post better photos of it, once it's in hand.

[Kent]

Wouldn't the dial that John Cotes posted be a Montgomery Dial (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Montgomery_D ials)?
...

Montgomery's dial patent is lost and since there is no documentation showing that Montgomery actually described a dial having its minutes numbered and having an inner ring of 13-24 hour figures, it is not quite correct to refer to these dials as Montgomery dials. Their proper description would be Canadian marginal minute dials.



...
Also, the dials other owners have posted would be what I would think (don't know) would be dials for RR watches.
...

While it is correct that these types of dials were used on railroad standard watches and military watches, they were also used by people who wished to have the extra clarity is reading the time. To indicate use by others, I've seen Montgomery dials (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Montgomery_D ials), Canadian dials (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Canadian_Dia ls) and Ferguson dials (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Ferguson_Dia ls) on 12-size watches.


...
So, while I can understand the design for RR watches or military watches, having it on what appears to be a watch for personal use (retail sale [?]) just seems kind of odd.
...

Just as the people running the trains needed to be able to read the time accurately, so did the people who needed to catch the trains.

[Hoos]

Montgomery's dial patent is lost and since there is no documentation showing that Montgomery actually described a dial having its minutes numbered and having an inner ring of 13-24 hour figures, it is not quite correct to refer to these dials as Montgomery dials. Their proper description would be Canadian marginal minute dials.



Thank you. That's helpful in the learning curve. Especially since this post (http://mb.nawcc.org/showpost.php?p=124671&postcount=9) shows Montgomery's patent for a dial, and it has no indication of hours 13-24 on the dial. Apparently, he did have several patents, but none I can find that show numeric minutes, hours 1-12, and hours 13-24.

Just figuring out "what do you call that?" is nearly as difficult as figuring out the intricacies of a movement. :D

[Kent]

Oops!

There are different Montgomery patents. The one you linked to is the 1920 patent dial, referred to by collectors as the Type II Montgomery dial. The one that was "misplaced/lost" dates to 1906. Thanks for pointing out that some more work is needed on the Pocket Watch Dials Wiki article.

Other general watch information can be linked to from the American Pocket Watches Category (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Category:American+Pocket+Watche s).

[John Cote]

I guess I will have to disagree with Kent. I think the dial I showed would have been called a Montgomery dial when it was produced. It is possible that it would not have been called a Montgomery dial in official advertising but just as most copy machines are referred to as Xerox machines it would be safe then or now to call it a Montgomery dial.

[Kent]

John:

I understand your point of view, I know watch collectors refer to just about any dial with marginal minute numbers as Montgomery dials, but I've got a couple questions about it.

Do you have any basis for your belief? Perhaps recollections of railroad old-timers, notes in old repair ledgers, or some such hint?

Does that looseness in reference extend to other marginal minute dials (http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Pocket+Watch+Dials#Marginal_Min ute_Dials)?

[John Cote]

John:

Do you have any basis for your belief? Perhaps recollections of railroad old-timers, notes in old repair ledgers, or some such hint?


I guess a couple of RR old timers Kent. I have been lucky enough to know a few guys including an actual Ball agent who were around and involved in the watch trade before ww II. They seemed to call them all Montgomery although I did hear the thing about needing to have the 6 in the seconds bit to "really" be a Montgomery. I also think that it is just much easier to say Montgomery than Marginal Minutes so I will bet that the consumer just took the easy way.

Anyway, now most people just say Montgomery when they see a Montgomery style dial and I think it is a good way to describe the style.

[beta21]

And one from Illinois: