Illinois "choo-choo" watch question

[StanJS]

Illinois experts,

I am looking at buying an Illinois watch (S/N 702389) circa 1887, 18s, HC, Model 2, Grade 4, gilt plates, Chalmers regulator, 5000 made with the engine and tender engraved on the plates. Russ Snyder's database says these are 11J unadjusted. This one has "15 Jewels" engraved on the plates and I think "Adjusted" (I'd have to go back to the shop).

Questions:

1) Are there known up-jeweled, adjusted, examples of this watch?
2) Are these valued by Illinois collectors? The engraving on the plates is crude.

Thanks,
Stan

[John Cote]

A couple of things: First this watch needs to have a special dial to be right. I know I have a photo of one somewhere but I can't find it right now. It has 24 hour numbers sort of inside the 12 hour numbers if I am seeing it correctly in my mind. Second, you are right that these are sort of crude watches. I thing I have seen them in both 15 and 11 jewel configs but both are low grade watches. Collectors like them a little...but not much. It is good to have one in your Illinois collection but not at a big price.

[StanJS]

John,

Thanks. It does have the right dial (nice) - the 13 - 24 are Arabic and the 1 - 12 are Roman. It has a nice gold filled hunting case but it is a replacement. In the end, I couldn't get a decent price and passed at $285 CDN. I have a movement picture. When I get home from Montreal, I'll add it for reference.

Cheers,
Stan

[Dave Coatsworth]

I think John has correctly stated the value. It is one of those watches that every collector of early 18-size Illinois watches must have in their collection, thus they are valued a bit higher than other Illinois watches of similar quality. There are 2 different dials that are correct - both are 24-hour. The more common of the 2 have the 13-24 numbers in arabic and below the roman 1-12 numbers. The other has the 13-24 arabic numbers superimposed over the roman 1-12 numbers. Meggers and Ehrhardt only describe an 11J version. I'd be interested in seeing a 15J version if you have photos.

[StanJS]

This one has the latter dial (the 13-24 arabic numbers superimposed over the roman 1-12 numbers). One reason I passed is that the "15 Jewels" engraved on the barrel bridge looked a little cruder than the other engraving and I was suspicious. Hence, my reason for posting the question above. I'll post a picture (likely Monday). Now, I regret not taking a dial picture.

Cheers,
Stan

[Fred Hansen]

Here are pics of a typical open face model version of this watch ...

http://fhwatch.com/watermark.php?image=iCM10056a01.jpg

http://fhwatch.com/watermark.php?image=iCM10056a03.jpg

These movements were made in 11 jewel open face and hunting case model as "Grade 4" and were advertised with the name "Railroader". I've never heard of an example that was not 11 jewels, that was marked with the jewel count, or was marked "Adjusted".

Without seeing the watch you are describing I am very suspect that it is not factory original work, but of course can't say its impossible and am definitely looking forward to seeing the photo. If it is indeed a factory made 15 jewel adjusted watch it would be a very interesting piece.

Fred

p.s. Illinois also made a small number of keywind model movements with a similar train engraving on the movement, these are not from within the runs listed in the serial records as grade 4 and the train image on these movements is a bit cruder. But these are also 11 jewel watches that are not marked "Adjusted".

[StanJS]

Fred,

That is the other dial. The one I saw is nicer.

It is a stem wind/key wind movement. When I mentioned this the seller decided not to negotiate the price. He thought he was asking too little. I then pointed out that a Rockford I was looking at had the same feature. We couldn't agree on prices.

Also, I stand corrected. Upon a second viewing, the word "Adjusted" was not present. A picture is forthcoming. I have my computer and my camera but not a wire to connect them. It will have to wait until I return home.

Cheers,
Stan

[StanJS]

Here is the promised picture. As you can see, the engraving of the "15 Jewels" is suspect.

Cheers,
Stan

[Jon Hanson]

Stan,

That engraving is not original. I suspect the engraver who did it did not remove the dial.

[StanJS]

Jon,

Agreed. That is just one reason I didn't buy it. (reason #2: price and #3: it's a dog-ugly movement.)

Cheers,
Stan

[Jon Hanson]

Stan J,

These movements have long been a favorite of the NEWBIE crowd because of the darn train!

Basically these are lower grade and advanced Ill collectors really don't care about them!

[StanJS]

Jon,

I figured there was demand because of the "darn train" and was trying to figure if I could turn it for a buck. I don't know why I think that way. I haven't sold a watch in recent memory. The darn things stick to me.

Cheers,
Stan

[Jon Hanson]

Yes, Stan, it is a disease! :eek: :D