Gruen Veri-Thin Pentagon

[Grauerj]

I recently acquired a Gruen Veri-Thin Precision 21-jewel pocket watch, #535190, I presume from the 1940s. It's bow, however, is not original. It is not the ususal Gruen style shape and is not gold (the case is 14k gold). Anyone know where I might find a matching 14k gold Gruen bow?

[A.F.W.]

As far as I could see there are not that many of thes gold Gruens around. I would just have one made and be done with it. Here is mine.http://www.afinewatch.com/images/gruenPentagon14K2.JPG

[Tom McIntyre]

I recently acquired a Gruen Veri-Thin Precision 21-jewel pocket watch, #535190, I presume from the 1940s. It's bow, however, is not original. It is not the ususal Gruen style shape and is not gold (the case is 14k gold). Anyone know where I might find a matching 14k gold Gruen bow?

Nice pentagon crystal on your watch also.

I think these bows are available, at least to a very close match. An interesting side effect of melting gold cases is that the fancy bows and bezels are worth a lot more than the melt value so the gold dealers tend to keep them and sell them one off. It is also often the case that bows are gold filled for strength even on solid gold cases.

[Grauerj]

Thanks very much, Tom, and nice to make your acquaintance!

Chris

[Cary Hurt]

Chris,

I believe that the Gruen bows were, as Tom mentioned, gold-filled, even on their solid gold cases. As such, you may be able to salvage one from a damaged GF case.

If you'll note the detail in this ad (another from my 1931 catalog) you can see that your watch could have been equipped with the simpler (and easier to find) triangular styled bow. Jules Borel offers a couple of choices in this style in their online horological catalog. I'm sure some of the other material houses would have them as well.

33515

I also believe that your watch is earlier than the 1940s. If you can post a picture of the inner case back markings, I can tell you with a bit more accuracy. Pentagon's were produced for a long time, but they are generally out of favor by the 1940s. In my 1942 dealer catalog, the Pentagon is only shown as an option for the 50th Anniversary presentation watch, and that one has the round dial, not the formed one. The 1942 catalog is not as inclusive as is the 1929 and 1931 versions, so they may have still offered the Pentagon, but they weren't pushing it.

I can't tell for sure, but in your image, the watch appears to be green gold, which Gruen used widely in the late 1920s. That would complicate your search a bit, as green is harder to find nowadays.

Regards,

Cary

[Grauerj]

Cary, thanks for another great page from your catalogues. I attach further pics. Because the "Veri-Thin" name on the dial is hyphenated, I understood that the watch would post-date at least the early '30s (I'm not sure exactly when the change was made). Also, it is a 21-jewel movement instead of 17j - closer to the 50th Anniversary movement of 21j + 2 diamonds. The movement is also marked '8 positions eight temperatures', and V-something in tiny figures between bridges that I cannot make out (not V-4). Any comments you may have re date would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Chris

[Cary Hurt]

Chris,

Your movement is a V 1½ grade, likely dating to 1926-1928. It appears to be missing it's case screws.

I believe that your dial may have been refinished. The text is typical of the 1940s wristwatches, and there is no apparent "Switzerland" beneath the 6. Your watch should have text more like that in the example posted by afinewatch. The hands on that example are incorrect replacements though.

Your case is post-1926, as prior to that, Gruen manufactured their own solid gold cases in Cincinnati. They subbed almost all case production to Wadsworth after that time. The "G" prefix on your case serial number indicates that it's a proprietary Gruen design, rather than a Wadsworth design. I do not know of any correlation of Wadsworth numbers to dates, as they apparently are consecutive across styles, sizes and makers.

If the edges of the center portion of your case are engraved with a reeded or chased design, then the fancier engraved bow would be the correct one. If it's plain, or has a simple dot-dash engraving pattern, then the plain bow would be appropriate. Either would be visually more appealing than the oval bow now installed.

Still a very nice watch.

Cary

[Grauerj]

Thanks, Cary. Could you tell me a little more about the V grades? Was the V1 1/2 a 21j 8 adjustment movement?

It says in Paul Schliesser's Gruen History site that Gruen changed the spelling from VeriThin to Veri-Thin in 1930, so that the latter spelling was used for all pocket watches from the 1930s on, and all wrist watches. Your 1931 catalogue page would suggest otherwise, at least for 1931.

I have another Gruen Veri-Thin Precision pocket watch from, I believe, the '30s (17j precicion movement, no V marking, round 10kGF Wadsworth case), in purported original condition. It too employs the hyphen and makes no mention of Switzerland below the six (just like my pentagon and afinewatch's pentagon - all 3 are silent about Switzerland!).

The pentagon seller has offered me a refund, and I have to decide whether to proceed with that. Unlike my other Gruen PW, the pentagon wasn't cheap!

Thanks again

Chris

[Cary Hurt]

Chris,

Here is a detail from my 1935 parts catalog...

http://mb.nawcc.org/picture.php?albumid=76&pictureid=585

Any movement can be adjusted to any number of positions. The V1½ is seen with different regulators and different degrees of finish and adjustment.

3 of my 5 Pentagons do have Switzerland at the base of the dial embossed into the metal. Two do not.

Cary

[Ethan Lipsig]

Cary, what is the difference between a Pentagon Verithin and a Pentagon Ultra Verithin? I have one of the latter, in a white 18k "Gruen" signed case decorated with black enamel. I would be interested in your views on that watch.

[Grauerj]

Cary, thanks very much. When I checked my round Veri-Thin Precision, I saw that it did indeed have 'Switzerland' deep below the 6 - below the edge of the bezel. The Pentagon does not. Do any of yours have numerals like mine (not applied, but reflective material outlined in black - see the 7 in the pic below)? Does this seem right?

Chris

[Cary Hurt]

Cary, what is the difference between a Pentagon Verithin and a Pentagon Ultra Verithin? I have one of the latter, in a white 18k "Gruen" signed case decorated with black enamel. I would be interested in your views on that watch.

Ethan,

The Ultra-Verithin was a higher quality movement than the regular VeriThin, and was intermediate between that and the Dietrich Gruen ultra-precision grade "Very-VeriThin". Even though it's a seventeen jewel movement compared to the V1½'s 21 and the V2½'s 19, it was finished more finely and had huge jewels in relation to the slim plates.

There were two different Ultra-VeriThin movements, yours being the earlier one, known simply as UV grade. The later one is the UV390.

I know your watch well, as I owned it before succumbing to a weak moment and trading it for a handful of Gruen Curvexes. I have regretted that trade, and am glad to know that it went to a good home. That watch was the best condition Pentagon of any grade that I've ever had. It is remarkably thin (around 8mm as I recall), even compared to the other VeriThin models, and yet there is real substance to the case.

Regards,

Cary

[Ethan Lipsig]

Yikes, Cary, I feel like a kidnapper!

[Cary Hurt]

Don't feel bad, Ethan, it's just one of those things. I actually came out well ahead on the transaction. I just traded a rare and special watch for several other lesser ones. I've since had many occasions to acquire the lesser specimens, but have only seen a couple of 18K UV Pentagons, and none at favorable prices. That's why I regret the trade.

I'm happy to know it's appreciated.

Cary