Gentlemen, please give me your criteria of collecting

[A.F.W.]

pocket watches.
My interest is mostly in wrist watches but often I come upon nice pocket watches and I end up buying.
Currently I have over 40 pocket watches and need to focus my pocket watch collection.
The market is so different between the two areas.
I think that pocket watch collectors pay much more attention to the movement than rest of the watch.
Yes the condition of the dial is important but not as with many wrist watches where the dial can comprise half the value of the whole watch.
So tell me please where do you see the most importance: movement, dial, case, manufacturer ?
Thanks for your input.

[Jon Hanson]

ORIGINAL WATCHES, not screwed with by dealers and butchers and so-called experts out to make money and ram it in.

Always go for condition as best you can.

[Don Dahlberg]

You are correct that those of us who collect 18 and 16 size watches are more interested in the movement, then the dial and last the case. Most early watches (before the 1920s) were not factory cased. The customer selected the movement and case and the jeweler joined them. As long as the case is appropriate and in good condition and there are no obvious signs of case swapping, we are happy.

In the 1920s many of the companies started to case their watches at the factory, although they continued to sell many models as movements only. Still the number of cases for the 16 size watches was small. Many of us are interested in the Hamilton cases on the 992 and 950.

The popularity of 12 size watches boomed about the same time as wristwatches. The variety of cases for 12 size pocket watches was almost as great as wristwatch cases for a couple of decades. Still I have not seen people actually collect 12 size watches for their cases. I see people purchase 12 size watches from time to time, but they seem uninterested in identifying the name of the case. They don't know a Marshall from a Cleveland and don't seem to care.

When I started collecting vintage Hamilton wristwatches, I proudly showed my friend, Will Roseman, "my new 980 in a Nelson case". He told me that the Nelson case was great, but pointing out the movement was of relatively little interest. As long as the movement was there, appropriate and running, that is all that mattered. If the hands or winding crown were wrong, that was serious.

Don

[A.F.W.]

You are correct that those of us who collect 18 and 16 size watches are more interested in the movement, then the dial and last the case. Most early watches (before the 1920s) were not factory cased. The customer selected the movement and case and the jeweler joined them. As long as the case is appropriate and in good condition and there are no obvious signs of case swapping, we are happy.

In the 1920s many of the companies started to case their watches at the factory, although they continued to sell many models as movements only. Still the number of cases for the 16 size watches was small. Many of us are interested in the Hamilton cases on the 992 and 950.

The popularity of 12 size watches boomed about the same time as wristwatches. The variety of cases for 12 size pocket watches was almost as great as wristwatch cases for a couple of decades. Still I have not seen people actually collect 12 size watches for their cases. I see people purchase 12 size watches from time to time, but they seem uninterested in identifying the name of the case. They don't know a Marshall from a Cleveland and don't seem to care.

When I started collecting vintage Hamilton wristwatches, I proudly showed my friend, Will Roseman, "my new 980 in a Nelson case". He told me that the Nelson case was great, but pointing out the movement was of relatively little interest. As long as the movement was there, appropriate and running, that is all that mattered. If the hands or winding crown were wrong, that was serious.

Don
Don, thanks for the great answer as alwayshttp://mb.nawcc.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Well why such a hang up about recased watches if the movement and the case were originally randomly put together by a jeweler or with a choice made by the customer?
I guess with pocket watches it is easier to admire the movement than with the wrist watches. It is bigger for one, no need for a loupe. Also case back can be opened at will with just the fingers, no tools needed.

[RON in PA]

I think what really turns off collectors of PWs is an obvious re-casing as indicated by extra screw markings on the case rim. Also some PW models should come in factory cases of a specific type as already discussed by Don. The fact of the matter is that it is often difficult or impossible to tell if a watch was re-cased if the new case was purchased new to replace a worn original case. Also watches made early in the 20th century should have cases appropriate to that era, pendant shapes changed.

[John Cote]

Well why such a hang up about recased watches if the movement and the case were originally randomly put together by a jeweler or with a choice made by the customer?


Although pocket watch collectors usually admire the mechanical aspects of the watch we want originality too. Most of the time you can tell a re-case in two ways. Either the movement should have a known type of case and it does not or you can see extra case screw marks. We want the watch to be an accurate historical artifact.

What Jon Hanson said above is absolutely true. Just to follow up, I think that, although there is some crossover, wrist watches are more of a jewelry item and pocket watches are more of a historical artifact. I buy a lot of pockets from old jewelers. They always ask if I only want the gold ones. When I answer that I am mostly interested in high grade watch movements and that if the come in gold or gold filled or silver or base metal cases it does not not really matter some of them just don't get it.

[A.F.W.]

Although pocket watch collectors usually admire the mechanical aspects of the watch we want originality too. Most of the time you can tell a re-case in two ways. Either the movement should have a known type of case and it does not or you can see extra case screw marks. We want the watch to be an accurate historical artifact.

What Jon Hanson said above is absolutely true. Just to follow up, I think that, although there is some crossover, wrist watches are more of a jewelry item and pocket watches are more of a historical artifact. I buy a lot of pockets from old jewelers. They always ask if I only want the gold ones. When I answer that I am mostly interested in high grade watch movements and that if the come in gold or gold filled or silver or base metal cases it does not not really matter some of them just don't get it.
Gentlemen, you have expressed your feelings about recased watches but let's talk about watches that are in their correct cases.
What do you like about the different movements available, what about the dials and what about the cases?
In other words what is it the decides when you see a watch that you want to pull the trigger?

[Tom McIntyre]

I like to use the term "authentic" rather than "original" because it is essentially impossible to distinguish the two without documentation of provenance and authentic is the less strenuous judgment.

I guess that view comes from a lot of years as a research scientist. i don't like to make any claim I cannot prove with good evidence.

[A.F.W.]

As a goldsmith I love gold cases with beautiful engraving.
I prefer cases without personal engraving but if interesting and done beautifully I like those too.
As to movements, I like nicely decorated movements with gold set jewels, gold center wheel and movements with micro- regulators. But I have purchased others too.
Yesterday I picked up a nice 14K gold cased Waltham 1899.
I guess for some of you it may be too generic...but for me a nice piece to have. I will post pics. shortly.

[A.F.W.]

http://www.afinewatch.com/images/waltham14K19887.JPGhttp://www.afinewatch.com/images/waltham14K198127.JPG

[A.F.W.]

http://www.afinewatch.com/images/waltham14K198812.JPG

[Jon Hanson]

Authentic is the wrong word--insinuates opposite from a fake or fabrication.

There are many so-called originally spoken of watches that have been switched, extra case screw marks or not.

MOST SWITCHES are NOT AUTHENTIC! And, there are many other ways to tell, re E. Howard molestations, early Waltham history revisionists, etc., etc.

[A.F.W.]

Authentic is the wrong word--insinuates opposite from a fake or fabrication.

There are many so-called originally spoken of watches that have been switched, extra case screw marks or not.

MOST SWITCHES are NOT AUTHENTIC! And, there are many other ways to tell, re E. Howard molestations, early Waltham history revisionists, etc., etc.
I am in disagreement with you on this aspect so let us move on.
What else are you looking for when deciding to buy a pocket watch ?

[Jon Hanson]

Huh?

Originality, movement, case and dial, along with condition, ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS whether you want to believe it or not!:eek:

[g r thomas]

Collect what appeals to you. If you like it, collect it.

[Dr. Jon]

My collection has the theme of portable precsion time keeping. I don't buy watches made before they were good time keepers and not much after quartz came alson although I have a few precision quartz watches.

In American Watches this includes railroads becuase of the the contribution these made to precision time keeping. It includes chronometers, US and English as well as torpedo boat watches by US, Swiss and English and Russuan makers.


I also like a good looking watch. To me signs of honorable service are a plus. I have an 18 size Bunn Special with colored gouges in its dial. They were probably stops on the train the original owner ran.

An occasional hairline ion the dial is not an issue but botchwork on the movement is a disqualifier. I make my buy decision based on the movement so what I want from a case is security.

On my high end Swiss and English pieces, I almost always get them with original cases which is usually easy to do since the serial number often match and the sizes generally were non standard. I don't pay a premium for originality and I'll consider an outstanding movement in a bad case but it has to be a really great movement.


I also collect high grade pendant watches, again those with wonderful movements. I stay away from ornate cases but most are very nicely decorated 18k gold. Usually, a really killer case has a mediocre movement. Not a lot of gold inthese which kept a lot from beign melted and I can get a lot of watch and not tie up my funds in metal.

I like American Swiss and English in this category and love my "ladies" even if they are not quite so precision, although I have many that were made to astounding precision.

I will sometimes take a flyer on something that catches my eye and do research.

I also track down owners and provenance, so personalizations and other engraving add to the fun.

Generally, very fine watches belonged to interesting people and I have "met" a lot of interesting dead people that way.

A lot of people are bored by the technology but get interested in the history. I like watches that lead me on a path to discovery.

[crsides]

On the later vintage pocket watches, I like to collect them NIB or at least in the original box. On earlier watches, I like the unusual, but coupled with a well know brand or model, even with high production numbers. Variants ... for example the Ham 992 had prod of 1/2 million watches but I like the pendant set version, the Adjusted for Railway Service marking (which I don't have), or one in a rare or engraved factory case. Watches that are truly rare (Pitkin with est 900 total prod) I will probably never collect because it is unlikely I will ever find one nor be able to it afford if I do. I do like nice cases and nice dials.


Charlie

[A.F.W.]

My collection has the theme of portable precsion time keeping. I don't buy watches made before they were good time keepers and not much after quartz came alson although I have a few precision quartz watches.

In American Watches this includes railroads becuase of the the contribution these made to precision time keeping. It includes chronometers, US and English as well as torpedo boat watches by US, Swiss and English and Russuan makers.


I also like a good looking watch. To me signs of honorable service are a plus. I have an 18 size Bunn Special with colored gouges in its dial. They were probably stops on the train the original owner ran.

An occasional hairline ion the dial is not an issue but botchwork on the movement is a disqualifier. I make my buy decision based on the movement so what I want from a case is security.

On my high end Swiss and English pieces, I almost always get them with original cases which is usually easy to do since the serial number often match and the sizes generally were non standard. I don't pay a premium for originality and I'll consider an outstanding movement in a bad case but it has to be a really great movement.


I also collect high grade pendant watches, again those with wonderful movements. I stay away from ornate cases but most are very nicely decorated 18k gold. Usually, a really killer case has a mediocre movement. Not a lot of gold inthese which kept a lot from beign melted and I can get a lot of watch and not tie up my funds in metal.

I like American Swiss and English in this category and love my "ladies" even if they are not quite so precision, although I have many that were made to astounding precision.

I will sometimes take a flyer on something that catches my eye and do research.

I also track down owners and provenance, so personalizations and other engraving add to the fun.

Generally, very fine watches belonged to interesting people and I have "met" a lot of interesting dead people that way.

A lot of people are bored by the technology but get interested in the history. I like watches that lead me on a path to discovery.

Thanks, I like your reply because it was not a GENERIC ONE.

[A.F.W.]

On the later vintage pocket watches, I like to collect them NIB or at least in the original box. On earlier watches, I like the unusual, but coupled with a well know brand or model, even with high production numbers. Variants ... for example the Ham 992 had prod of 1/2 million watches but I like the pendant set version, the Adjusted for Railway Service marking (which I don't have), or one in a rare or engraved factory case. Watches that are truly rare (Pitkin with est 900 total prod) I will probably never collect because it is unlikely I will ever find one nor be able to it afford if I do. I do like nice cases and nice dials.


Charlie

Thanks, I was looking for these kinds of replies.
Not "buy what you like" or "originality, condition e.t.c."

[Don Dahlberg]

The questions was asked about what we want in a movement. For me timekeeping ability is very important. I love the mix of science and art in these watches.

The advantage of a large watch is that it is easier to adjust a large watch to keep better time than a small watch. Because of railroad standards there were a large number of very high quality timekeepers made in 18 and 16 size. They were adjusted to hot and cold temperatures and isochronism. They were adjusted to keep near the same time over five or later six positions. A railroad grade watch kept time within 4 seconds per day and within ten or so seconds over six positions. Wristwatches of that era were adjusted to keep time within 30 seconds per day. Yes, nearly a century later we can keep even better time with mechanical wristwatches (e.g. Rolex with laser cut parts). Never the less keeping railroad standard time was an impressive accomplishment in the year 1912 and it was only possible with large watches.

Some people are into jewel count. I am less impressed with that. 17 jewels is enough for me, because I do not see much improvement in timekeeping ability with more jewels.

I love the damaskeening on a vintage pocket watch.

Finally I love the sound. A nice large pocket watch makes beautiful music and is much louder than a wristwatch. Illinois pocket watch just sing.

Don

[A.F.W.]

The questions was asked about what we want in a movement. For me timekeeping ability is very important. I love the mix of science and art in these watches.

The advantage of a large watch is that it is easier to adjust a large watch to keep better time than a small watch. Because of railroad standards there were a large number of very high quality timekeepers made in 18 and 16 size. They were adjusted to hot and cold temperatures and isochronism. They were adjusted to keep near the same time over five or later six positions. A railroad grade watch kept time within 4 seconds per day and within ten or so seconds over six positions. Wristwatches of that era were adjusted to keep time within 30 seconds per day. Yes, nearly a century later we can keep even better time with mechanical wristwatches (e.g. Rolex with laser cut parts). Never the less keeping railroad standard time was an impressive accomplishment in the year 1912 and it was only possible with large watches.

Some people are into jewel count. I am less impressed with that. 17 jewels is enough for me, because I do not see much improvement in timekeeping ability with more jewels.

I love the damaskeening on a vintage pocket watch.

Finally I love the sound. A nice large pocket watch makes beautiful music and is much louder than a wristwatch. Illinois pocket watch just sing.

Don

Thanks, appreciate your reply. Here are a few from my collection from 12 size to 18 size, all great time keepers.

http://www.afinewatch.com/images/hamilton9358.JPG
http://www.afinewatch.com/images/walthmriversidmaximus6.JPG
http://www.afinewatch.com/images/walthvan235.JPG
http://www.afinewatch.com/images/southband4.JPG
http://www.afinewatch.com/images/hamilton9925.JPG
http://www.afinewatch.com/images/hamilton9408.JPG

[Tom McIntyre]

Thanks, appreciate your reply. Here are a few from my collection from 12 size to 18 size, all great time keepers.

[http://www.afinewatch.com/images/walthmriversidmaximus6.JPG



I am surprised this one is keeping great time. It seems to be missing the regulator.:confused:

This one is only 21J, but it does have that piece that seems to be missing from yours.
33282

[A.F.W.]

I am surprised this one is keeping great time. It seems to be missing the regulator.:confused:

This one is only 21J, but it does have that piece that seems to be missing from yours.
33282

Thanks "Eagle eye " Tom:)
the regulator came off shortly after the purchase and that is when I took the picture. The watch was serviced by my watchmaker and he installed the regulator back.
Thanks for pointing it out, I need to take another pic, and replace the one I posted here.

[Mr Wind Up]

As a pocket watch collector, my criterion for collecting is mainly focused on movements. I prefer low serial numbers, extra clean, and highly decorated movements. Next, would be dials. I look for mint to near perfect dials, as I think this gives the first impression of what lies beneath. Cases are lower on the list as a mint case is great but an old worn case around a stunning watch inside is almost as great. I am very particular about these qualities in my collection. I own a large, diverse watch set that has many makers and many grades. I have the $100 Elgins up to the high dollar, high grade big boys. All have perfect movements and perfect dials. All movements are pretty well decorated and show very nicely in pictures. Cases are mostly super sharp but I have some tiered ones too. Over all, many collectors in my area have never said anything about the cases but always commented on the guts and works of my watches. The other deciding factor I think about prior to buying a new watch is historical importance or what it may have seen at it’s birth. I picked up a cool KW/KS silver watch for super cheap. I bought it because I pulled out my watch book, which I always carry in my truck, and found that the watch was made in 1865. After digging around some, I conjured up a production sheet online and it said that this Home Watch Company watch was sold early January 1865. It could have been carried across a battlefield during the Civil War. Things like this will also make me want to own a watch. I also wanted to make a comment about an earlier post about wristwatches and the fact that you can’t see the movements unless you pop the backs off. I have some “Strap Watches” and all have mineral backs or are skeleton watches. Here again, movements are a top concern prior to purchasing. I like the ones that are large and resemble an old-fashioned pocket watch. Just a little extra note.


AFineWatch, super sweet 940!! I picked up the Ball version of the 940 as well as the 940. I like the fact Hamilton went to all the time and effort to make a movement look as good as possible for not hardly showing any of the tiny mechanical parts. This supports my criteria, I had to own these too.

[A.F.W.]

As a pocket watch collector, my criterion for collecting is mainly focused on movements. I prefer low serial numbers, extra clean, and highly decorated movements. Next, would be dials. I look for mint to near perfect dials, as I think this gives the first impression of what lies beneath. Cases are lower on the list as a mint case is great but an old worn case around a stunning watch inside is almost as great. I am very particular about these qualities in my collection. I own a large, diverse watch set that has many makers and many grades. I have the $100 Elgins up to the high dollar, high grade big boys. All have perfect movements and perfect dials. All movements are pretty well decorated and show very nicely in pictures. Cases are mostly super sharp but I have some tiered ones too. Over all, many collectors in my area have never said anything about the cases but always commented on the guts and works of my watches. The other deciding factor I think about prior to buying a new watch is historical importance or what it may have seen at it’s birth. I picked up a cool KW/KS silver watch for super cheap. I bought it because I pulled out my watch book, which I always carry in my truck, and found that the watch was made in 1865. After digging around some, I conjured up a production sheet online and it said that this Home Watch Company watch was sold early January 1865. It could have been carried across a battlefield during the Civil War. Things like this will also make me want to own a watch. I also wanted to make a comment about an earlier post about wristwatches and the fact that you can’t see the movements unless you pop the backs off. I have some “Strap Watches” and all have mineral backs or are skeleton watches. Here again, movements are a top concern prior to purchasing. I like the ones that are large and resemble an old-fashioned pocket watch. Just a little extra note.


AFineWatch, super sweet 940!! I picked up the Ball version of the 940 as well as the 940. I like the fact Hamilton went to all the time and effort to make a movement look as good as possible for not hardly showing any of the tiny mechanical parts. This supports my criteria, I had to own these too.

Wow, I loved your detailed post. Nice insight into the interest of a pocket watch collector. I think I mostly agree with your criteria of collecting.

[49stude63]

I tend to pick up low production movements, typically 17 jewels and up, I also like nice looking movements with special or unusual dmk work. I have probably a heavier split of RR watches vs non-RR watches. In the case of the Elgin grade 342 I try to pick up a version of each of the 5 runs (only 5000 made) to see the variations from the 1st run to the 5th run.

[Mr Wind Up]

I tend to pick up low production movements, typically 17 jewels and up, I also like nice looking movements with special or unusual dmk work. I have probably a heavier split of RR watches vs non-RR watches. In the case of the Elgin grade 342 I try to pick up a version of each of the 5 runs (only 5000 made) to see the variations from the 1st run to the 5th run.

Two other cool cases and neat dials that I have are also two same but different watches. These are sort of the same idea “49stude63” talked about but in different makers than different run versions. These are the Hamilton 940 21j and the Ball-Hamilton 21j. Same movement per se’ but two variations. The cases were very interesting as well. The 940 has a very intricate spiral pattern and the Ball has a very cool Star rim around it. Being a “cowboy”, this was like a tribute to Texas with the stars. I will have to re-shoot the Ball so you can see the detail better.

Sorry about the big pictures but I wanted to give you a better veiw of em'.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/1865_TickTock/Watches/casereshoot.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/1865_TickTock/Watches/P1030757.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/1865_TickTock/Watches/940Ball.jpg

[HUDD]

I collect 18s full plate American only. The reason being that I just love these magnificently engineered timepieces combined with the beautiful damascening that shows up so well on a full plate movement. Not quite the same on bridge movements. My favourites have to be from the Illinois stable, but Hamilton watches come a close second for me. Dials are also important to me, my favourites being the Illinois gothic style dials found on many bunn models.

In my case movements come first in order of importance and then dials. cases need to be in reasonable condition, appropriate to the movement and fully functioning. However, because I live in the UK and do not have limitless resources my main source for collecting is via auction sites such as Ebay. I tend to buy movements requiring work, often these come eitherwithout a case or with a totally worn out case. That means I sometimes have to recase and therefore if I were to post pictures of my collection many would be seen to have "extra" case screw marks. I make no apology whatsoever for this. I would never sell a watch without identifying that it had been recased. In fact, I rarely sell watches. Only occasionally to raise funds to continue collecting.

My greatest pleasure of all is to repair watches myself. Buying a fully serviced ( ? ) watch at great expense to me defeats the object. Far better to understand how these mechanical miracles work. You can't beat it. I'm not an expert but watches have held a lifelong fascination for me as has the art of watch repair.

Hudd

[rrwatch]

I think I have posted this before, but it was quite a while ago, so here goes.
I collect pocket watches containing 20 (in some few cases 19) jewels or more that would have passed inspection on some or all railroads in North America at the time they were made. This includes watches made in Europe as well as the U.S., as many railroads would accept these watches. Thay were more prevelant in Canada and Mexico, but some high grade Swiss and German movements were always allowed on at least some U.S. roads from the earliest days (at least from the 1850s and probably earlier, right up until the 1970s).
As you might assume I am a quality movement nut. The movement quality is the most important aspect of the watch to me, but I also want a dial and case that would have been contemporary with the movement, and in a factory case if that was all that was offered when the watch was new. While I prefer a case that is crisp and sharp, and a dial that is free of hairlines, I will also accept one that shows honest wear and a slight blemish or two. These were working watches and weren't collectable works of art when they were new.
And I want them in operating condition, so I can wear them. My desire to have them work was what started me doing repair and restoration work thirty four years ago, and has greatly added to my appreciation of these fine mechanical devices.

[Kent]

I collect 18s full plate American only. ... I sometimes have to recase and therefore if I were to post pictures of my collection many would be seen to have "extra" case screw marks. I make no apology whatsoever for this. ...
Hudd

I don't mind the extra screw marks, please post the pictures other than the 944.

Thanks,

[HUDD]

Hi Kent here are a few of my favourites from my collection.

Hudd

[Kent]

Very nice, thanks!