Overwhelmed, but itchin' to start

[BCMontana]

Hi all,

My name's Scott, and I am like just about every other new collector I have read about on this forum over the last month. I am amazed and astounded by these mechanical works of art, and I want to learn as much as I can, and become skilled in their repair and maintenance.

But, and you've all heard something like this before, the amount of information one needs to acquire is incredible! I admire those of you who have years of experience and knowledge. I'll get there some day, but there's only so much I can read before the need to just jump right in overcomes the good sense to take my time and move slowly and deliberately.

In addition to reading and lurking on this site for a month, I have read the books recommended by Fried, de Carle, and Engle. I have bought a few broken Elgins from eBay and disassembled/assembled them. I have also bought a few which work but are in need of a full cleaning and oiling. I am saving a bit for an ultrasonic cleaner before I attend to these.

I still have at least a couple hundred questions I would like to ask, but I think I'll find the answers if I read more here. Unfortunately, where I live it is not easy to attend a NAWCC chapter meeting, so I think I will have to get most of my education on this site and others, and through books.

Although I've read a lot of "newbie" advice posts here, I would still appreciate the wisdom of you seasoned collectors and watchmakers. I also have one specific question about a particular watch I found for sale today:

I found a Hamilton 941 (SN 159539) in very good condition at a pawn shop. The price asked was far above the true value, but that's probably the norm for a pawn shop. The biggest problem was that it was cased in an open face case. I told the owner this, and gave him an offer, and he lowered the price almost 2/3rds! Still, the price he wanted was in between that of a 940 and 941. The 941 represents to me what would be the watch I would really enjoy carrying, but I would definitely want it to be in a hunter case (I don't think I'd like carrying a sidewinder). For my own enjoyment, I would like to recase it into a nice hunter case. I know how most around here feel about recasing a movement, but I would be doing it for myself, not to resell. My main questions are:

1. How difficult is it to find a nice Hunter Case which would be appropriate for this movement (about the same vintage, 20yr or 25y GF)?

2. Would I be paying too much if I talked the owner down to what would be a reasonable price for a 940? Is that a decent rule of thumb or not?

3. Maybe it is not worth the effort if what I want is really a nice hunter? Would I end up spending too much money to buy the case?

4. Is it really bad to recase a HC movement from an open face to a hunter case? I did not notice the signs of previous recasing, so how likely is it that the open face case was the movement's original case from 1902?

Thanks a lot everyone. I have already learned a lot just from lurking and reading. I know I will learn more, and I will be joining the NAWCC soon.

Thanks,

Scott

[Kent]

Hi all,
...
1. How difficult is it to find a nice Hunter Case which would be appropriate for this movement (about the same vintage, 20yr or 25y GF)?

Hi Scott

Welcome to the NAWCC American Pocket Watch Message Board!

It's not real difficult if you can go to the mart NAWCC regional conventions. But those of us who know who to ask what questions end up with the better cases that may not be out on the tables. However, you can get one and it can be expensive (18-size hunting cases are at a premium - look at all the loose hunting movements or sidewinders that there are on eBay). If you don't own the watch yet, consider passing on it and waiting until you find one in an appropriate hunting-case, all in nice condition. It will be worth the wait to get just what you want.


2. Would I be paying too much if I talked the owner down to what would be a reasonable price for a 940? Is that a decent rule of thumb or not?

You need to look at the difference in price between a 940 and a 941 (both in the right cases), try to figure out the value of the open-face case that the 941 is in, find out what a gold-filled hunting-case is going to cost you and judge if this is the way to go. Probably it isn't, which is why so many of these combinations exist.

3. Maybe it is not worth the effort if what I want is really a nice hunter? Would I end up spending too much money to buy the case?

Probably. You're better off finding the right combination in the first place. With a production quantity of over 25,000, there are a lot of 941s out there.

4. Is it really bad to recase a HC movement from an open face to a hunter case? I did not notice the signs of previous recasing, so how likely is it that the open face case was the movement's original case from 1902?

No, its not "really bad to recase a HC movement from an open face to a hunter case." The problem is that some original combination of hunting movement and hunting case gets destroyed to provide the case you want to use. As you're aware, there many people who rightfully feel that this should not be done.

It could be an original recase, or even the original case. Or the case could have held a watch with the cse screws in the same location.


... I know I will learn more, and I will be joining the NAWCC soon.

Thanks,

Scott

Let me know if you'd like me to be your sponsor when you join (you can send an email to me by clicking on my name in the upper left-hand corner of this post and viewing my Public Profile).

Good luck,

[doug sinclair]

Scott,

Are you aware that NAWCC Chapter 115, OLD WEST is headquartered in Bozeman? President Dave Berghold. This might help get you started.

As to your muddle about what to buy. Those decisions are easier to make if somehow you are able to get involved in NAWCC regionals (like the May regional in Kent, Washington). At these regionals, you'll see thousands of watches. You can competitive shop until those Montana cows come home! This is a great way to learn, and to learn judgement. Also, a great way to pick up the tools you'll need as you proceed. It's a great way to discover which direction you want to go in your collecting. And a HUGE source of information!

One lesson you might want to learn, early on, before you have the skills to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, is to spend the extra and buy good stuff. Remember that what you have to spend to fix up what you collect, comes out of your collecting budget! Collect watches, NOT repairs. Besides, a fixed up watch is never as nice as an unrestored original in good shape.

Stick around! Join NAWCC. See you in Kent in May?

Doug S.

[BCMontana]

Thanks for the advice. With a limited budget (of course, most anyone has a limited budget, but mine is severely limited) I need to be careful not to waste my money. I'm sure the 941 is not a rare movement, but at this time, it would represent the most expensive watch I would buy. I think I was caught up in the feeling that I had discovered a hidden gem amongst all the Hong Kong watches in this pawn shop. When I think I've found a diamond in the rough on eBay, it soon becomes obvious that many others have found it too!

From what I have seen in the last month, the watches that run, have dials in good condition, and GF cases not worn through to brass are commanding higher prices on eBay than the price guide from Engle. Has this been a trend? I know we do not discuss specific values here, but a hypothetical example would be a watch which Engle states the ABP price is $125: On eBay, the hypothetical watch looks pretty good, has a hairline crack on the dial, runs, but has not been serviced, and has a 25yr GF case with moderate wear, but not to brass. I'm seeing this watch go for maybe $160 or $170.

One reason I'm concerned about price is that I thought I had a good strategy: Buy working watches that tick but don't run for extended periods, invest the time to disassemble and properly clean them, and then resell them as serviced and running well and make $50-$75. That way I could slowly build up to a higher quality of watch and afford more tools along the way. But if I have to pay the Ex-Fn price to start with, it seems that selling for more than that, even properly cleaned, oiled, and with a new mainspring may be impossible.

I'm more than a little shocked that a beautiful mechanical masterpiece that keeps good time and is over 100 years old, can sell for less than a brand new Casio electronic watch that will be thrown away in a couple years. I'm sure that sentiment has been repeated many times here, but I don't think I'll ever get over it, although I will accept it... if I have to... I guess.

My normal occupation does not allow me time to travel to NAWCC Regional events such as the upcoming one in Kent, WA. Stuck at home, are there other safe, decent sources of quality watches besides eBay?

Thanks again,

Scott

[doug sinclair]

Scott,

If expense is a factor, consider what the outlay in equipment and parts will be in order that you are able to "upgrade" less than perfect watches to the point where you can "flip" them for a profit. That, plus acquiring the skills and knowledge necessary to buy wisely, and to be successful in doing this. Going from where I sense that you are, to where I sense that you want to be can take years, and commitment. Whether you want to be a collector, a dealer, or a dealer/collector means being at the right place at the right time, cash in hand. This hobby is not really one you can usually just "fall into". Too bad about Kent, Washington. Events such as that can really give you a leg up.

Doug

[BCMontana]

Yes, expense is a factor, but not so much for the tools and equipment necessary to service the watches. Since this is not a business, I do not need to account for the price of the equipment in the bottom line.

Actually, the point was to make a little bit of money buying and selling watches (the word "flip" seems to have a very negative connotation) just so that I could buy more and better tools as I went along, as well as a few nicer watches which I would keep for my own collection. I'm not looking at selling watches as a way to make money--just as a means to fuel this hobby.

Yes, I have a LOT to learn. I don't even have the knowledge or equipment to replace a broken balance staff at this point. But I do believe I have learned enough to take a functional watch apart, clean it properly, oil it properly, and have it in better condition that what it was. With time I will learn more advanced techniques, and acquire more tools. I'm just looking for a way to make a few bucks here and there so that I can afford to become more involved with this fascinating world of American pocket watches.

I'm tryin' to check my own reins and go about this a bit slower, but the enthusiasm to dive in is pretty powerful!

Thanks!

Scott

[Veritas]

Hi Scott, i understand where you are coming from.And i know the frustration.I started in pocket watches, taking them apart and cleaning them and oiling them.
I would suggest a course from a cd to study watch repair.The one called Chicago School of watch making is very good.And the cd is not expensive to buy.Study it and practice what is in it.And as Doug said it could be many years before you have tools and knowledge and be proficient in the repair side of it.
I think better source for watches is the Emart and then you would have to be a member.
But you will be dealing likely with more knowledgeable people and more honesty from them too.
Ebay has some good sellers, but they have many dishonest ones too.
Take it easy and learn slowly and make a few mistakes along the way, we are all human and make a few mistakes.
And ask questions here, many will help you for guidance and advice.

[StanJS]

Scott,

I look at eBay as buying retail. If you want to "flip" and make a few bucks, then you want to buy wholesale and sell on eBay. That means you have to get dirty. You need to buy at flea markets, garage sales, or wherever. This is the bottom end of the food chain.

You have to know what things are worth. You don't want to pull the Price Guide out of your pocket and have the seller watching over your shoulder as you run your finger down the "Average" column as he is eying the "Ex-Fine" column.

I've bought a number of watches for less than $100 - and my jewel count is averaging better than 21. They all need some level of care. Like you, I am working my way up the repair learning curve.

Good luck and keep hunting,
Stan

PS. They are out there. Below are a few examples.
1) Rockford 17J Model 838
2) Hamilton 21J 992
3) Waltham 23J Vanguard
4) Hampden 23J Model 104
5) Hamilton 21J 992B

[John Pavlik]

"I'm not looking at selling watches as a way to make money--just as a means to fuel this hobby."

Scott,

You thought process is sound and workable... Just remember about 90% of collectors do what you said above..the servicing end is where you can stand out...

[StanJS]

John,

My thought was to become a dealer as a way to support my addiction. So far, I haven't sold anything. There may be a problem in my execution.:D

Cheers,
Stan

[John Pavlik]

Stan,

Selling the first one is kind of like buying the first 1.. You gain confidence and think you may actually know what your doing....:o Selling also makes you a better buyer.. After selling a quite a few... a couple of regrets, but the others have been fuel to address my changing tastes..

[Ralph Porter]

Stan,
I encourage you to listen to all this sage advice but weigh it for youself and then follow your heart.

I began about 18 yrs ago by inheriting a couple railroad watches that no longer ran properly. Most folks I asked just wanted to buy them, but not to tell me about or help me with them. I was blessed to have a local master watchmaker take me under his wing. On week-end afternoons he taught, critiqued, criticized, and inspired me. He has passed on now, but a lot of great people both here and locally have filled that void.

For a number of years my repair work focused on restoring pieces for my collection and helping a few others. I would only sell a watch to add or upgrade items in my collection. Now I mostly buy watches to restore at the request of others, except when an unusual Hamilton crosses my path.

So I encourage you to go for it, learn all you can, work on every watch you can, and collect the very best you can. Good Luck!
Ralph

[BCMontana]

Thank you all for the welcome, and the advice. I have learned so much in only a month, so I can only imagine how much more I still have to learn!

I decided to pass on the open-face cased 941, and hold out for a watch that is exactly what I want.

I now have a ultrasonic cleaner on its way, and am close to producing my first cleaned and oiled watch. Most of you experienced folks may not be interested, but I think I'll post some photos of my modest but functional bench setup for those out there who aren't ready to spend thousands on brand new tools and a fancy watchmaker's bench.

Thanks again to all--

Scott

[Don Dahlberg]

After a few years of collecting, I got tired of paying for overhauls. I took the first three watchmaking courses at NAWCC form Jim Micheals. They were great. So now I now I have been overhauling watches for about 14 years. I have a fortune tied up in tools. It would have been better of just having someone else overhaul watches.

I really enjoy my hobbies, watch collecting and watchmaking, but they both cost money. There is no savings unless you get into this seriously and put out a large number of watches. Most people who purchase a watch on Ebay know little about watches. They see an unserviced watch for $150 and the same watch serviced for $250 and they will buy the unserviced watch. Even if the serviced watch was $200, a real bargain, they still will buy the unservised watch.

Don