Illinois CD discrepancy

[pago]

Hello - I think I found a discrepancy in the Illinois CD sent to me from
Chapter 149. I don't know if anyone keeps track of this but in the
interest of accuracy I thought I would report it. Illinois watch
serial number 2253370 is depicted as a 16s, model 5 , Abe Lincoln
grade on the CD when I believe in fact that it is actually an 18s, model 4
Abe Lincoln. I'm looking at the photo of the movement in Ebay and it
does not appear to be a 16s but rather a full plate movement. The
movement matches the 18s model 4 as depicted in Shugart's 2009
guide, p. 292. By the way, I am not critisizing the Illinois CD -- I
love that thing. Maybe someone could check this out and correct
on forthcoming issues.

[terry hall]

if this item is still active, we can't 'talk' about it...

but there were no A. Lincoln grade 18s Model 4 movements manufactured

The 18s A. Lincoln was manufactured in model 6 though... in two variants.

if/when the item has ended, a link to the image would help.

The CD is NOT without discovery of 'errors'... these carried over from the original serial number list Bill Megger's created. 'We' have made many discoveries and corrections to the information as time has passed.

It is encouraged to report any 'differences' to improve the data.

[pago]

Thanks Terry -- it is still active.

[g r thomas]

I recently noticed in the Illinois Database CD what looks to be an error.

When I look up 2968340, which is a watch I own, a 16s, Sangamo Special, 21 j, Model 9, false bridge, I get the following information from the CD database: watches in s/n range from 2968001 through 2968500 (including mine – s/n 2968340) are 23j movements, not 21j movements.

Chapter 149 article, “The Sangamo Special - Beginning to End”, found at the following link: http://www.kirxklox.com/project/editorial_cms.php?id=2 (http://www.kirxklox.com/project/editorial_cms.php?id=2). correctly shows my s/n as a 21j false bridge movement.

Where the database identifies s/n run 2,968,001 – 2,968,500 as being 23j Sangamo Special movements, the information in the Chapter 149 article identifies these s/n's as being from Run #25; 21j Sangamo Special false bridge movements.

Anyone else notice anything similar? Any updates to the database coming out to correct this?


Thanks


Richard

[Jon Hanson]

We usually update this Ill Cd once a year--it would be absurd to update and mail out new copies for every error or omission.

[BCMontana]

What is the reason that the information on this CD is not in a public database available on a Web site? Is it proprietary information?

If access to the information needs to or is desired to be controlled, then it could still be put on a Web site, and only registered users could access the site.

In that manner, then when discrepancies arise, they could be addressed in one place, and there could even be a method for watch owners to submit correct data and photos. The Web site could even export data to burn to a CD if that was desired.

Sorry if this has been hashed out before, and if I'm overstepping my grounds as a new member on this site.

Thanks,

Scott

[pago]

When you look at the volumes of information associated with
pocket watches -- the different combinations, the age of the
base material, the "unknown" factor with the production dates
and serial numbers, it's amazing that CDs and databases were
created at all. My humble thanks to all the experts who work
on this info so that watch collecting becomes easier and more
enjoyable for us all!

[John Cote]

What is the reason that the information on this CD is not in a public database available on a Web site? Is it proprietary information?


Scott,

This is a good question and you are not overstepping anything by asking it. I will take a stab at an answer but I may not be completely right.

The gentleman who developed the 149 database for Illinois did it before he had much thought about putting it on the web. He did an incredible job of putting together a very complicated relational database but in the end it has proven very difficult to make it work on the web.

The discussion as to whether the data is proprietary or not is an interesting one. I doubt that serial numbers etc could be considered proprietary but research can be. The Illinois Watch Company has been researched to death by many good people who have published books and articles. There has been a lot discussion about how this research might legally be used to flesh out an online database. It seems a complicated issue.

Illinois data is much more complicated than the data from most American companies because the company produced in a very irrational way. There are so many anomalies, so many exceptions and so many broken rules that it just plain boggles the mind. This is why Illinois is so much fun to collect and try to learn. I have always said that the best thing about collecting Illinois is that you can never be sure that you have assembled a complete collection of any grade or type because there is always a weird one-off or ten-off out there waiting to be found.

Anyway, welcome to the discussion group and happy collecting.

[terry hall]

John
Does the copyright on the original print publication come into play?

I do know from Russ this was a consideration as to the content of the CD.

[John Cote]

Terry,

As you know, I am not a lawyer. There are certainly some concerns about copyright issues with the original Meggers/Ehrhardt book/books. Bill made some pretty specific notes in his database and made some pretty obvious mistakes.

I doubt that there would be any copyright concerns if previous research was used to produce an online or other database which was published as a not for profit enterprise. This is especially true if the publication of such a project did not infringe on the ability of previous copyright holders to derive income from their copyrights.

I seriously doubt that any reasonable rational person could contemplate hiring a lawyer and suing over these issues. The amount you would have to pay a lawyer to delve into this kind of thing would far out weigh any profit you could possibly derive from the publication of this material.

[BCMontana]

Well, the main reason I ask is because I would be willing to provide the services and server to put such a database online.

I am very new to watch collecting, but have over 20 years experience as a software engineer. Much of my professional and private work has been involved with providing a user-friendly Web-based interface to a complex database. I have worked a lot with "dirty" data, and although I have not seen the Illinois data, I am confident that it could be provided online in a useful form.

I operate many Web servers, and it would not cost me anything to add another server to my stack. It would only cost my time to create the programs to load, serve, and maintain the data, and the Web interface. I would be willing to provide my expertise at no charge, and would feel that is one way I can give to this community who seem so willing to help watch neophytes like myself.

Feel free to contact me privately if you would like to discuss this prospect.

Thanks,

Scott

[Jon Hanson]

Thank you, NO.

Chapter 149 is doing it our way.

Jon Hanson, Pres and founder

[Tom McIntyre]

The easiest and most general rule is that data cannot be copyrighted, but presentation can be copyrighted.

The serial number and model data cannot, in itself, be copyrighted. This is true even if you were the one who discovered the fact. By its nature a fact is not ones "original work." That is why it cannot be copyrighted.

Of course, there are social and technical concerns about extracting data from one form of expression and using it in another form of expression.

Two of the current on-line databases are explicitly in the public domain, the Elgin on-line database and the Waltham on-line database.

The NAWCC is currently working on an integrated database of watch serial numbers that will likely be restricted to member use with possible subscription access to others.

[Jon Hanson]

For serial number look ups for Hamiton, Hampden, South Bend and Rockford one can use the free Chapter 149 data bases on the Chapter 149 web site.

Other data bases are in tne process of preparation.