Scarcest Hamilton Pocketwatch

[Jerry Treiman]

Am I correct that this is the lowest production Hamilton pocketwatch? One dozen H917 movements were produced in 1938, marked "E.Howard Watch Co., Lancaster, Pa." so that Hamilton could protect their rights to the Howard name (purchased in 1931). These are in their own serial number sequence, this example being HWR9. The case is a 10K gold-filled Keystone J.Boss case. Are any other examples known?

[Hamilton later produced a limited number of wristwatches, in somewhat larger quantities].

[Robert Sweet]

Jerry,
Thanks for sharing No. 9 of 12. Trying to find one of these is almost like trying to find one of the five 1913 V Nickels.

Are there any others accounted for?

For some reason, Roy Ehrhardt's Hamilton "Identification and Price Guide" mentions that only 11 were made, but as you mentioned and according to the Halligan/Gelson records there were 12.

Next in line, according to the Hamilton Price Guide, is the Ball, 999E, with only 40 made, followed by the pendant set, 951, with only 44.

Robert

[John Cote]

Am I correct that this is the lowest production Hamilton pocketwatch?.

How about the 25 jewel?

[Nigel Harrison]

Hello,

From another perspective a single digit serial number hammy would be a tough one to find! :) Even though the grade was not as rare as the above watches.

[rrstd]

Jerry,

Congrats on the find. Definately a rare bird.

Rhett

[Tom McIntyre]

How about the 25 jewel?
The 25 jewel is certainly unique, but it was not a production watch in my opinion. It was upjeweled from a standard watch as a special order.

I don't remember if it started life as a 934 or 936 although it is noted in the records. We need to tag the original thread since you cannot search for "25."

[rrstd]

Do we have a clear cut definition of what constitutes a production versus non production watch? In the case of obvious prototypes, the distinction is rather easy - but for watches produced and sold, the line can be much less clear. In the case of the 25J (which was essentially a factory "up jeweled" 936), I could debate either way. In my mind however, the same debate could be applied to the Hamilton - Howard's.

In addition to these watches, Hamilton also produced a number of other low production watches. This included 10 - 16's model 26's (similar to model 23), an estimated 5 - 937's marked Ball's Standard, Superior Grade and an estimated 3 - 939's marked ORRS for Ball. It could be argued that the latter two were essentially private labels, but one could probably make the same argument for both the 25J and the Hamilton-Howards.

IMHO however, the debate is purely academic. In the end, they are all rare and extremely desirable watches.

Rhett

[Don Dahlberg]

Hamilton had many trademarks to protect. I was told by a former Hamilton employee that from time to time during the 50s and 60s they produced an Illinois Bunn Special with a Swiss movement to protect the trademarks. I have Howard and Illinois dial blueprints from the later years.

Don

[rrstd]

Tom,

Here's a link to a previous discussion you started which included a link to pictures of the 25J Hamilton.

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=7936&highlight=hamilton+25J

Rhett

[HenryB]

Doing a sort on the Hamilton database yield these:

30001-30001 - 11J Gilt - 1
44001-44002 - 21J-OF - 2
999999-1000000 - 947 - 2


This will provide a good "sanity" check for me,

So Rhett, Terry, Don, and others - am I correct with these production numbers ?

[terry hall]

30001 is listed in townsend's book as a sample to Mermond & Jaccard in St Louis...

I think there are other 11j movements ..250 of them.. not sure if all in gilt.....

It may take a ledger search for info on the 21j as that is what townsend also lists... no grade, just count...

There are 'about' 308 grade 947... townsend estimated 350... at least some of these are possibly upgraded 941 movements.. i could be mistaken on this though

I am certain there are more than 2, because I have held 3 different ones...;)

[Kent]

Do we have a clear cut definition of what constitutes a production versus non production watch? In the case of obvious prototypes, the distinction is rather easy - but for watches produced and sold, the line can be much less clear. In the case of the 25J (which was essentially a factory "up jeweled" 936), I could debate either way. In my mind however, the same debate could be applied to the Hamilton - Howard's.

In addition to these watches, Hamilton also produced a number of other low production watches. This included 10 - 16's model 26's (similar to model 23), an estimated 5 - 937's marked Ball's Standard, Superior Grade and an estimated 3 - 939's marked ORRS for Ball. It could be argued that the latter two were essentially private labels, but one could probably make the same argument for both the 25J and the Hamilton-Howards.

IMHO however, the debate is purely academic. In the end, they are all rare and extremely desirable watches.

Rhett


Regarding Ball and whether the ORRS watches are private label watches ....

... yes but, these were probably finished (adjusted) at Ball's facility. They're more than parts but less than complete (ready to sell) movements.

[HenryB]

There are 'about' 308 grade 947... townsend estimated 350... at least some of these are possibly upgraded 941 movements.. i could be mistaken on this though



Terry-
Are not all the 947's, except the two I listed, upjeweled models by the factory, and thus were not entered as "947's" in the Hamilton Manufacturing records ?

Do not mean to derail this thread, just curious.

[rrstd]

From my count, the total number of 11J Hamilton's is closer to 315. This includes all four variations (gilt-hc, gilt-of, nickel-hc, nickel-of).

I believe most of the 947's were taken from runs of 943's.



Now back to Jerry's watch - have any other of the 12 Hamilton Howard watches been uncovered?


Rhett

[terry hall]

Henry...
Maybe someone with access to the ledgers will clarify...

You may be correct that 'all' are actually upgraded movements...

i do note in the 'handwritten' serials 163001 to 164000 are split between 943 and 947
Townsend indicated 163 947 in this run....and he broken this run out by serials...

[s. smith]

Jerry I did not know that Hamilton ever made the watch you posted up ,,It ,s nice and i would say finding another one would be almost imposable...:)

[Jerry Treiman]

I have a couple of minor updates on this watch, thanks to the research efforts of Don Dahlberg and our Library Research Center. First, with regard to the production date, I now believe these watches were made in 1939 rather than 1938. I had gotten the earlier date from the "Gelson" list, which I understand to have been re-compiled from the Halligan data. Halligan's data (ca.1948, as reproduced by Ehrhardt) indicated a production date of 1939 and I now see that the 1957 compilation from Halligan's sales department confirms this date. I suspect that a typo was introduced in the later Gelson compilation.

Also, with respect to production quantity, a ray of hope for others. Halligan had a footnote that, although 12 were recorded, a "larger quantity than indicated believed produced". It will be interesting to see if a number above HWR12 turns up.

[Fred Hansen]

An exceptional find and a treat to see something like this, thanks for posting Jerry!

:)

Fred

[Don Dahlberg]

I would like to make a comment on the reliability of production numbers. Lowell Halligan was in charge of keeping sales statistics for Hamilton from the early 1930s to 1951, when he became VP of Sales. He collected the number of watches produced from the Finishing Department, the number of sales, the number of returns and the number left in inventory each year. For the 917 from 1936 to 1949 he recorded that 170,672 movements were produced as reported by the Finishing Department. 169,750 were sold during this period and 2,579 were in stock at the end of this period, which totals 172,329 sold or left in stock according to the Sales Department. Now 17,297 movements were returned during this time, so some watches were sold more than once. Still, if you do the math, the numbers do not work out. Halligan had to make an adjustment of 38 watches. The production and sales number just do not jive by 38 movements. Perhaps from time to time a watches went "missing" from either the Finishing or the Sales Departments. It was probably worse than 38 watches, because if a watch went missing from the Finishing Department and if another watch went missing from the Sales Department, they would cancell each other out. :) If you look over the period by years, the "corrections" ran from 2 to 30 watches, some year plus and some years negative. Watches were appearing and disappearing from thin air all the time. To add to the confusion, "116 movements were taken from stock and sent to the factory", whatever that meant.

This confusion was typical with all the grades. So do not take the "official" numbers too seriously.

Halligan wrote about 45 pages of sales records for the 917. These include prices by year, records of all styles, finishes and colors of cases sold by year, all presentation watches made by company name and so on. There is nothing on the Howard 917 movements. The only records I have seen on the H917 are in the production summary tables that you have all seen. Hey guys, they were not computer controlled in those days.

Don

[Jerry Treiman]

Here is a clip of the Halligan records that Don is referring to (for the 10-size movements)

[Kent]

... Hey guys, they were not computer controlled in those days.

Don

And now today, in the computer controlled age, we have GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out!

[George]

I am wondering if a watch I have may also fit into this categorie? Tis a Hamilton size 16 , grade 970 21 jewells with a detent, It is also stem wound and set, The movement number is 84470.
Would this watch have been made like that ( with detent) or is it an extra put on by a craftsman watchmaker.

[Jerry Treiman]

Early Hamilton 16-size movements used a removable stem held by a detent, similar in design to that used on Waltham's 1888 model.