Pocket Watch Sizes

[Kent]

Land:

Like our other systems of measurement, American movement and case sizes can be traced back to an English system, one known as the Lancashire gage. In this system, the size is based upon the diameter of the watch plate to which the dial is fastened, known as the pillar plate. 0-size has a pillar plate diameter of 1-5/30" (yeah, right!). Sizes then increment by 1/30" for each count. Although there are exceptions, watches are sized to even numbers with the most common being 0, 6, 12, 16 and 18. These account for the vast majority of American-made watches. A 6-size watch has a pillar plate diameter of 1-5/30" plus 6/30", or 1-11/30". The diameter of a 16-size movement's pillar plate is 1-21/30", and an 18-size watch is one whose pillar plate diameter is 1-23/30" ( 1-5/30" plus 16/30" and 18/30" respectively). This is right up there with 12 inches to a foot, 16 ounces to a pound and 32 ounces to a quart. The same people have brought us the term hundredweight, which isn’t a hundred of anything but it is equal to 8 stone. Since a stone is equal to 14 pounds, a hundredweight is equal to 112 pounds.

The fact that even sizes are almost always used, alleviating the necessity of making very fine distinctions, makes it easy to express the watch size with a fairly close approximation. First, measure the diameter of the dial to the nearest 1/32 of an inch, then subtract 1/32" and then subtract 1-5/32". For example, the dial diameter of a 16-size watch is 1-22/32". Subtracting 1/32", we get 1-21/32". Subtracting 1-5/32" leaves 16/32", Hence, its a 16-size watch. Remember to be careful of the hands when measuring the dial diameter. In order to measure the dial diameter, and only the dial diameter, don’t include any part of the case. The bezel, the metal ring that holds the crystal (glass), will have to be removed or opened. In the manner similar to the backs of watches, the bezel either hinges, snaps or unscrews open on an open-face watch and snaps off on a hunting-case watch. Refer to the essay on Opening Cases (http://www.knology.net/~ksinger/opencase.txt).

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[Barry G]

Some general information can be found here (http://barrygoldberg.net/watchguide/size.htm).

And yes, smaller watches are generally considered ladies watches (many were worn around the neck on a chain as jewelry).

Barry

My Online Pocket Watch Collection (http://barrygoldberg.net/watches.htm)

[Kent]

Thanks to Barry for posting a very useful link.

18 and 16 size watches are considered to be men's watches, while 14, 12 and 10 size are usually thought of as men's dress watches. Sizes below that are ladies' sizes.

Kent

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[doug sinclair]

Land,

Just to confuse the issue of watch sizes, down to "O" (naught) size, the smaller the number, the smaller the watch. THAT IS, until you get to American wrist watch sizes BELOW "O" size. Then it is the reverse, The BIGGER the number, the SMALLER the watch! For example. A 2/0 size watch is 1 4/30". A 3/0 size watch is 1 3/30". A 4/0 size watch is 1 2/30". An 18/0 size is 18/30".And American watches get smaller than 18/0 in modern ladie's sizes! Welcome to the wonderful, confusing world of watches!

Doug S.

[Jon Hanson]

14 and 12s watches once were advertisied and sold as "boy's watches!"

10s size watches are considered ladies watches and advertised as such by the Waltham and Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. companies. One model Elgin 10s watch was appropriately signed "Lady Elgin!" :wink:

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149 (http://nawcc-ch149.com), The Early American Watch Club

[Kent]

Jon:

Thanks for the clarification!

So, although 14 and 12 size watches were originally markedted as boys' watches and 10 size as ladies' watches, mens' dress watches were enventually made in those sizes. By the `teens mens' dress watches were promoted in 12-size and by the 1930's, 10-size.

Kent

That guy down in Georgia :smile:

[Tom McIntyre]

To expand on the 0 size designations, the 3/0, 6/0 etc. are shorthand for 000, 000000, etc. The only sizes that are normally written fully expanded are 0 size and 00 size. When you get to 0 the 1/30th rule continues to apply, but you begin to count the zeros.

One explanation for the strange values is that the back plate of the watch is based on 1" for 0 size and the 5/30ths is the amount of additional space needed to allow a hinged movement to be swung into position in the normal hinged pillar plate English design. The difference in size is called the drop and varies somewhat with the size of the watch. The actual amount required depends on the thickness of the watch as well as the base diameter. Modern watches with a fully removable stem can have a smaller drop since no pivoting is needed to fit the movement into the case.

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Jerry Treiman]

Although the early 14-size watches were certainly marketed as "Boy's watches" I do not believe any 12-size were ever marketed this way. The earliest 12-size were a few odd keywind watches made by Elgin and Waltham from 1865 to 1876. I had always considered these to be the largest of the ladies watches, in an era when most men's watches were 18-size. Jon, if you have a copy of an ad or catalog listing these as boys watches I would be interested to see a copy. The next 12-size models produced were Howard's J-size, in 1891 or 1892, marketed for "gentlemen"

Jerry Treiman
member, chapters 174 & 185

[jwdavis]

Jerry,
I was not aware of any 12s Elgin KW's in that time period. I thought there were 18s, 17s, 14s and 10s. Do you have any examples or serial numbers?

Jack Davis
NAWCC #0155192

[Jerry Treiman]

Elgin produced movements listed as 12-size 1st model in 1875, starting with #363,001. A quick count shows 11 consecutive runs of 6 grades. I found one more run at 390,001 for a total of 7000 movements (various grades). The 12-size 2nd model does not appear until 1897, seemingly in answer to Waltham's 12-size 1894 model. I have not yet seen an example of the 1st model.

Jerry Treiman
member, chapters 174 & 185

[Jerzy Ganczarczyk]

The sizes of American movements basically followed the Lancashire scale, except for the E. Howard's movements, where a different letter scale was used. A little bit more complicated was the English system, which in addition to the Lancashire scale, used also a different Wycherley's scale. This scale was introduced some years before Wycherley used it in his industrial production of movements in rough (eboches). Marking the pillar plates with the movement size indication was introduced in England in early 1800. However, it appears that these marks were rather an indication for the size of required watchcases than for the movement size itself. If the dial was directly attched to the pillar plate, or if the dial plate (brass edge) was of the same size as the pillar plate, there was no difference. But some English watches had the dial plates much larger than the pillar plate, and consequently, the size marks on the pillar plate referred to the size of the dial plate.

[ckeithjohnson]

Just a piece of Trivia.In the big Illinois book, Springfield and Illinois watch company co-founder, John Whitfield Bunn's 8size watch is shown and he could have had anything!!!! Jon would have went crazy. Bunn fitted the watch with a conversion dial and took an 18 Karat Hunter case and machined it into a "cut hunter". So some of the wierd stuff out there could have been tinkered with at the highest level! Keith

[Jon Hanson]

Hi Keith,

That is nothing compared to stuff I have seen done; however, at least he DID IT in the FACTORY!:wink:

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149 (http://nawcc-ch149.com), The Early American Watch Club