What percentage of watches in use for railroad service were Ball watches?

[lak611]

I had a new question based on this post (http://mb.nawcc.org/showpost.php?p=336451&postcount=19). Since Ball was watch company, and also had contracts with jewelers who inspected watches as well as sold Ball watches, it seems to me that Ball could have easily dominated the market for standard watches, or at least commanded excellent "real estate" so to speak in the jewelry shops (like the way Coke and Pepsi get the best shelves in grocery stores). What percentage of watches in use for railroad service were Ball watches during Ball's lifetime?

Were Ball watches still as popular after Webb C. Ball's death, or did the brand lose its influence later on?

[terry hall]

a good, but difficult question !!

let's look at a couple of figures... only for hamilton...and only a couple of grades 16s...

16s 21J 999.... an indicated production of about 47,000 movements...

compare to lets say... 992Lever...(second model) about 438217
992E about 61000


999B... about 27,000 movements

992B... about 500000 movements

all this would ASSUME all produced went to RR service (doubtfull)

this is not even comparing against other makers, or grades....

At one point... posted somewhere in the archives... there was a survey posted of the number of movements in service on a particular line by maker... but i think the time frame was before the 16s (hamilton) made Ball introduction

Then you have the 18sizes to contend with... :D

[Kent]

I had a new question based on this post (http://mb.nawcc.org/showpost.php?p=336451&postcount=19). Since Ball was watch company, and also had contracts with jewelers who inspected watches as well as sold Ball watches, it seems to me that Ball could have easily dominated the market for standard watches, or at least commanded excellent "real estate" so to speak in the jewelry shops (like the way Coke and Pepsi get the best shelves in grocery stores). What percentage of watches in use for railroad service were Ball watches during Ball's lifetime?

Were Ball watches still as popular after Webb C. Ball's death, or did the brand lose its influence later on?

There was a lot of objections from the railroad brotherhoods over just this point. Here's an example:

Excerpts from The Jewelers’ Circular - Weekly And Horological Review, March 2, 1898, Pg. 26

'Big Four Watch Inspection' (the Big Four was the CCC&StL, a NYC Road whose time service inspection was contracted to Ball - Kent)
'Grievances Reported in the Methods'

'The employes of the road who claim to have a grievance are the engineers, firemen, conductors and rear brakemen. These include all who are subject to having their watches regularly inspected under rules of the company. The engineers have taken the grievance in hand ad are preparing to push it until the evils complained of are eradicated, however serious may be the consequences.'
...
'As watches have to undergo inspection regularly, and the employe must have a certificate from the inspector before he can go to work again, the opportunities to induce the employe to purchase a certain style of watch are numerous. It is claimed that inspectors frequently intimidate men by telling them it would be "best for their interests" if they would purchase a certain style of watch, or that the only watch that will pass muster at all times is the "official" watch. The official watch is always the one in whose manufacture and sale the chief inspector (Ball - Kent) is interested. Watches of other make, it is claimed, are seized upon by the official inspectors and pronounced out of order very frequently when they are keeping excellent time. In such cases, it is asserted, outrageous prices are often charged for repairs, which the employe reluctantly pays as he cannot return to work until he gets his watch, and a delay of a day or two would mean more to him than the cost of the repairs.'
...
'It is claimed by the men that there has been a systematic effort by his (Ball's - Kent) inspectors to compel them to discard watches that they have and purchase the Ball watch, and that furthermore the Ball watch passes inspection readily while watches of other make are frequently found out of order.'

These issues were resolved by the publication of examples of grades of standard watches from the various manufacturers which would be accepted.


The question of "What percentage of watches in use for railroad service were Ball watches during Ball's lifetime? is really not difficult. Only a small percentage of watches used in railroad time service during Ball's lifetime were Ball watches.

Terry posted some comparitive numbers for Hamilton, but Hamilton was only one manufacturer. Let's look at what was made for Ball for railroad time service during his lifetime and note that the date of his death in 1922 was when the last of the Waltham-Ball watches were built and before all but a few 16-size Hamilton-Ball watches were built (Data mostly from American Railroad Watches, George E. Townsend, Col. G.E. Townsend, Alma, MI, 1977):

Howard
180 OF
+20 HC
------
200 Total

Hampden
No accurate data available, but estimate at 1,000 or less

Elgin
6,000 OF
+ 210 HC Estimated
--------
6,210 Total

Hamilton 16-size (w/ Gold Seals - those w/o were built 1922+)
6,700 23-jewel
2,300 21-jewel
--------------
9,000 Total

Hamilton 18-size (all jeweling, may include RR Watch Co)
22,250

Waltham (all jeweling)
53,700 OF - Close estimate
+ 800 HC
---------
54,500

All together, about 93,000 railroad standard watches. I did this quick and may be off by a thousand here or there, but the number is under 100,000.

Although the 18-size watch was accepted into time service after 1922 on some railroads, by that time, the number was pretty low. So:

Here's just a few 18-size watch quantities
205,000 - Hamilton No. 940
130,000 - Elgin Veritas model (Father Time, BWR, Veritas)
226,000 - Waltham Model 92 (Vanguard, CS & 845 all jeweling, HC & OF)
+40,000 - Hampden Special Railway (all jeweling, HC & OF)
---------
601,000

It can be seen that Ball's quantities are small by comparison, when one considers all of the 18-size standard watches built in the 1890-1922 era whose production quantities weren't immediately available. Add to that all of the 16-size standard watches built in the 1900-1922 era.

If it occurs to anyone to ask about after Ball's death, well ... maybe there were about 75,000 Hamilton-Ball and Illinois-Ball standard watches built to compare with the real American mass production of standard watches.

184,999 - Elgin BWR No. 478
175,000 - Elgin BWR No. 571 (Approximate)
525,000 - Hamilton 992B (Approximate)

There were hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of other 16-size standard watches whose post-1922 production quantities aren't immediately available. One example is the Waltham grade 1623 Vanguard. There must have been well over 150,000 of this watch made. Heck, there were about 45,000 South Bend grade No. 227 standard watches made, but it'll take a little work to split the quantities at 1922. You get the idea.

[Jeff Hess]

Webb C. Ball had several companies.

His store sold Hamiltons and othr brands as well as Ball watches.

His Inspection service did not frown on high grade watches of ANY maker.

They even passed many Swiss watches for RR use. (and keywinds early on!!)

Jeff Hess