American Pocket Watches exported to Australia

[PeterDoobes2000]

I am interested in any information that people might have on Pocket Watches exported to Australia in the period 1900-1920.

I have seen a number of pocket watches that have been labeled "Hardy Brothers" with "Made in U.S.A." on the face. The Hardy Brothers (http://www.hardybrothers.com.au/) are highly respected Jewelers. They are holders of the Royal Warrant and have produced a number of culturally significatant pieces in Australia include the "Melbourne Cup" and appointments for the Governor-General of Australia.

I have seen some Waltham Colonial / 19J Riverside watches circa 1907, but have no indication of how many were imported in this period.

[PeterDoobes2000]

I found this quote about exported watches by Waltham, but there is no indication of how many were exported to Australia (& how many were badged as "Hardy Brothers")
In a 1908 address to “The Committee on Ways and Means of the 16th Congress”, German born John C. Dueber, known as one of the most controversial and innovative characters in the watch industry ..., described how of all the eight major American watch companies, only Waltham exported its watches. Even then, Dueber explained, this amounted to less than 5% of Waltham’s overall production. (Source: http://www.antiquorum.com/vox/june_2002/poniz/poniz.htm)

[Fred Hansen]

I've seen mostly Elgin and Waltham watches with Australian private-label markings, usually marked on the dial only.

Here are pics of a 16 size Waltham dial marked to an Australian firm ...

[Fred Hansen]

And here are a pair of other names I've seen marked on the dials of Elgin made movements ...

"Stevenson Bros., Adelaide"

"W.C. Nicol, Watchmaker and Jeweler, Bowral"

... and I can probably dig up info on a few more if you are interested in this type of information.

Fred

[PeterDoobes2000]

Do you have any indication of the quantity of Australian private-label markings (1900-1920) ?

Do private-label markings help/hinder/make no difference to the value of pocket watches? Do people specifically collect private-label marked watches?

[steamcar]

W.Dunkling in Bourke St Melbourne was a big importer of watches into Australia during those times. I have seen a number of Omega watches marked with their name on the dial. I have in my collection a Moeri's Patent non magnetic from 1908 marked with their name.
I believe they had a large range and likely imported from the US as well.

[Fred Hansen]

Do you have any indication of the quantity of Australian private-label markings (1900-1920)?

I definitely don't and I would doubt that anyone really does. As an entire group I would say these aren't tremendously scarce and I do see them from time to time, but certainly in the full view of things they aren't common and only a pretty small fraction of the total private-label production of any American company would have been headed for Australian export. Some other thoughts I'd have on American watches with Australian private-label markings ...

- the production figures for most individual markings are likely pretty small

- Elgin and Waltham are probably the most often seen among American companies and I can't say I remember seeing much in Australian private-labels among Illinois, Hampden, Rockford, or Hamilton

- England and Canada both probably received a significantly larger number of private-label American made watches than Australia




Do private-label markings help/hinder/make no difference to the value of pocket watches? Do people specifically collect private-label marked watches?

Great questions but there is no single yes/no answer for them ... as opinions will vary greatly from collector to collector and also from watch to watch. Some collectors like private-labels and actively pursue certain ones, some are indifferent, and some dislike them. These preferences may also change between different makers, grades, models, etc.

I usually like private-labels myself and there are a few types that I am always interested in. I would personally rate an Australian private label marking as adding to the interest and desirability for most watches, but would say that for many watches it would probably be a relatively modest bump in interest/desirability as I have no particular connection with the region. But for another collector with a more specific interest in Australia or Australian history the added interest might be quite a bit more.

Here are a few links to good past threads on this board discussing private-label watches and collector interests ...

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=3776

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=16045

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=19125

Fred

[Jon Hanson]

In an attempt to find info on this topic I WOULD, as an Australian, search home newspapers for the period.

I once found some French newspapers that touted Waltham imported watches. Possibly one could get some idea of the time frame, brand and type of watches being sold to natives in your country.

Just an idea...............

[PeterDoobes2000]

Thanks for the opinions about the private-label markings.

I have also located some information about the Hardy Brothers Jewellers in the State Libary of NSW. Namely the business records 1852-1910 including Agreements, Correspondence, Catalogues, etc (http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemdetailpaged.aspx?itemid=404643 (http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemdetailpaged.aspx?itemid=404643)). These records should include the details of the Pocket Watches that they sold in that period.

Unfortunately the library is in another state, so I will need to add it to my list to do next time I travel to Sydney.

[Snide]

There are the Model 92s made for the New South Whales Government Railway

[Bryan Eyring]

Great discussion so far and I have added this to our Past Pocket Watch threads (http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=39917) sticky.

Regards,
Bryan

[Jeff Hess]

there was a woman from Adelaide who used to come to marts in the USa on occasion.

She had a SPECTACULAR collection of Walthams for Aussie market. If memory serves, many of them had Brit hallmarks, inidicating that they may have been sent to Birmingham first and THEN sent to Australia.

Is that possible?

Does anyone else remember this lady?

Superior chrono's and such she had!

Jeff

[steamcar]

Perhaps the movements came from America and the cases came from UK and the watch was assembled in Australia. There were some interesting laws around that time that were trying to encourage local production.

[PeterDoobes2000]

It is definitely possible that they came through the UK first. I found the following item in the online collection of the Powerhouse Museum about the "Hardy Brothers Goldsmiths & Horologists". The particular item is for a Gold brooch c1860, but gives an indication of the practice of the day.
Hardy Brothers was founded in Australia in 1853 by the watchmaker John Hardy. It was for many years based both in London and Australia, in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne. In its early years, Hardy Brothers was almost exclusively a retailer and most pieces were imported from England through the offices of Hardy's brother Samuel, who was based in London. (Source: http://powerhousemuseum.com.au/collection/database/?irn=345484 (http://powerhousemuseum.com.au/collection/database/?irn=345484))

[Kent]

Perhaps the movements came from America and the cases came from UK and the watch was assembled in Australia. There were some interesting laws around that time that were trying to encourage local production.

This is known to have been done in Canada, mostly to avoid the higher tariffs on complete watches. A Canadian importer (Peter Kushnir) once described to me Hamilton 992B movements and an equal number of cases arriving in the same box. As "watch parts" the duty on them was significantly lower than the duty on an equal number of complete watches.

[PeterDoobes2000]

The National Library of Australia has been digitising old Australian Newspapers. These make for a great read for some history on American Pocket Watches exported to Australia:

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/tag?allTags=1&name=Waltham

There is a nice "history" about Watchmaking in America:), as well as a bit of a heated debate :mad: in one of the papers over a competition held with American, English and Swiss watches all being tested at the Observatory, Melbourne. (The "Representative" of the American Watch Company does not seem impressed!)