Question regarding original prices of Illinois watches

[lak611]

I took a look at the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting catalog on the Elgin database. I noticed that the 18 size Bunn Special and Bunn watches were cheaper than the 16 size watches. Was this because 16 size was trendier so the demand was higher, or was there another reason for the higher price of the 16 size watches?

[Jon Hanson]

Someone can correct me, but I believe it was becasue 18s watches were being phased out at that time. (You know, reduced to move out?)

[John Cote]

I took a look at the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting catalog .....

I think Jon is correct. After about 1905, most railroads really wanted 16s watches. Oskamp-Nolting was famous for selling overstock at low prices.

[Kent]

....
After about 1905, most railroads really wanted 16s watches.
....

John:

Do you have any sort of reference to back that up?

[Kent]

I took a look at the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting catalog on the Elgin database. I noticed that the 18 size Bunn Special and Bunn watches were cheaper than the 16 size watches. Was this because 16 size was trendier so the demand was higher, or was there another reason for the higher price of the 16 size watches?

I think that it was a similar sort of thing to the 16-size watches being trendier. I think that the 16-size higher grade watches were somewhat newer and required some new tooling and were thus priced accordingly.

1906 - Rockford 17-jewel Winnebago
18-size - $33.00 - No. 205
16-size - $37.50 - No. 405

1912 - Hamilton 21-jewel railraod standard watch
18-size - $28.00 - No. 940
16-size - $30.00 - No. 992

1913 - South Bend 17-jewel The Studebaker
18-size - $34.00 - No. 323
16-size - $40.00 - No. 223

These prices came from watch company catalogs and represented the movements only.

[lak611]

Someone can correct me, but I believe it was becasue 18s watches were being phased out at that time. (You know, reduced to move out?)

I think Jon is correct. After about 1905, most railroads really wanted 16s watches. Oskamp-Nolting was famous for selling overstock at low prices.That makes sense. I did not realize that the 18 size were starting to fall out of favor that early.

[Kent]

I don't think that the 18-size watches started falling out of favor as early as 1905, although certainly by 1915-1920.

[lak611]

The catalog was from 1917 so clearance sale does make sense in terms of my original post.

[Jon Hanson]

Prices for these started falling after a certain date

KS is correct that 1905 is a bit early

One way to "read into these things" is to have many PL of various years and companies to follow the trend.

I have many, if anyone needs a certain year and price

[bernie levine]

For whatever this source is worth:


The railroad timekeeping NAWCC 17th Annual Seminar, Rockford Ill.
October 1996.
Railroad Service Requirements:
And I quote:
After 1920 at least 19 Jewels, open-face, Adjusted to 5 positions.
No 18 size movements.

[Kent]

It varied from railroad to railroad:

United States Railway Administration
Georgia Railroad
Jan. 5, 1919

4. The minimum standard of excellence adopted by the Company for new watches going into service is [a] grade known among American movements as "Nickel 17 jewel, Lever Set, Double Roller Patent Regulator, adjusted to heat and cold, and Five Positions," the variations of which must not exceed thirty seconds per week. The grade names and numbers are herein plainly specified.

ILLINOIS MANUFACTURE, 18 size Bunn, 17 jewel and upward. 16 size Bunn, 17 jewel and upward.
HAMILTON MANUFACTURE, 18 size No. 936, 17 jewel and upward. 16 size No. 972, 17 jewel and upward.
ELGIN MANUFACTURE, 18 size B.W. Raymond, Nickel 17 jewel and upward, 16 size B.W. Raymond, 17 jewel [and] upward.
SOUTH BEND MANUFACTURE, 18 size No., 323, Studebaker and upward. 16 size No. 223, Studebaker and upward.
HAMPDEN MANUFACTURE, 18 size John Hancock, 21 jewel and upward. 16 size Railway, 19 jewel and upward.
WALTHAM MANUFACTURE, 18 size No., 845, 21 jewel and upward. 16 size Riverside, 19 jewel and upward.
HOWARD MANUFACTURE, 16 size, 17 jewel, 5 positions and upward.

"A" Watches already in service, adjusted to three positions will be accepted, if conforming to all other requirements above specified.

"B" All new watches in service just be lever set and must show manufacturer's grade, name or number engraved on movement. No watches specially made or named by or for any jeweler will be accepted.

[John Cote]

John:

Do you have any sort of reference to back that up?

Kent,

I will try to dig up some old ON ads. I probably should not have made that statement without posting some backup but I know I have read a lot of ON ads where they were blowing out watches for low prices. I even remember seeing an ad where they were blowing out their own 18s Ben Franklins.

[Robert Smothers]

Kent-

Do you remember seeing a Web C Ball ad referring to 18 size watches as "coal burners"? If I remember correctly Web offerred to take 18 size(coal burners) as trade toward the purchase of the new 16 size models.

Robert

[Kent]

Robert:

Not coal burners, wood burners.

Picture this:

- You are Webb C. Ball and you own various companies which make money specifying, distributing (jobbing) and retailing high grade railroad watches. And, you own another company that sets the rules that determine which watches will pass inspection (as long as the management of the individual railroads don't object).

- It's 1917 and the railroad industry has already passed its peak of expansion. From now on, the number of railroaders (and consequentially the number of watch sales) will continue to decrease.

- Except for those old timers whose older watches have been grandfathered forward, everybody under time service rules already has 17-jewel (or higher) open-face watches, fitted with a double roller and adjusted to five (or more) positions that meet the specifications.

- With the watches receiving the required maintenance, they'll last long enough to be passed on to the railroaders' great-grandchildren in good working order. There'll be little need for replacement watches.

- In the face of declining profits, what do you do?

It's obvious, You've discontinued 18-size Ball watches in 1914, now you attack the 18-size watches!
May 1917 Ad (http://photos21.flickr.com/24809244_4fc08ab88d_b.jpg)
Another May 1917 Ad (http://photos7.flickr.com/9782093_1ffbb40762_o.jpg)
April 1918 Ad (http://photos21.flickr.com/24803221_d8c4db3cc4_o.jpg)
October 1918 Ad (http://photos22.flickr.com/24803222_6d5e53074a_o.jpg)
February 1919 Ad (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-9/1217458/1919_Feb_Ball_Turnip_LR.jpg)
March 1919 Ad (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/1919_Mar_Turnip__Ball_Shortage_LR.jpg)

Jeff Hess once posted the pages of a booklet containing Safety Meeting notes of Ball and the Operating Officials and Watch Inspectors of the Union Pacific, June 21-22, 1916. In discussing using the "new" 16-size watches for loaner watches so that the railroaders would get to try them and then accepting 18-size trade-ins, this exchange occurred:

Mr. Ball:
"...
One watch inspector I know has turned out two hundred old watches that way in the last two years, so he told me last week and put sixteen size watches in service by that method."

Mr. Koos:
"What does he do with his eighteen size old watches?"

Mr. Ball:
"He trades them off to pit men and car cleaners and dagoes; people of that class, and then he has an auctioneer that goes around the country. He will frequently send him twenty-five or thirty old eighteen size railroad watches. It is very little trouble getting nine or ten dollars out of those watches, and rarely he has to allow more than ten dollars for them. ..."

Note: The people whom Ball is describing, as customers for the old 18-size watches, do not fall under the time service rules. In this manner, Ball is removing the 18-size watches from time service.

Oh yeah, it was the railroads whose time service inspection systems that were NOT contracted out to Ball who accepted 18-size watches longer, into the 1920s.

[Kent]

Kent,

I will try to dig up some old ON ads. I probably should not have made that statement without posting some backup but I know I have read a lot of ON ads where they were blowing out watches for low prices. I even remember seeing an ad where they were blowing out their own 18s Ben Franklins.

I'm not asking about documentation that 18-size watches were being discounted. I was curious about the statement "After about 1905, most railroads really wanted 16s watches."

[Robert Smothers]

Kent-

Thanks for digging out the ads....."WOOD BURNERS" it is! Old Web probably could have made it in the used car business with his selling talents.

Robert

[Don Dahlberg]

I have read thousands of pages of original Hamilton material and have never seen Hamilton lower the price of a movement until the bitter end when that particular model was being discountinued. They would then sell their leftover stock in bulk at a reduced price to a jobber and usually had restrictions that it could not be sold for railroad use. They never lowered an "advertised price" to phase out a model. They never wanted a customer to say, "I bought my watch too early." The only reason they ever changed an advertised price was the cost of production or taxes. I assume the other watch companies were the same.

The 16 size model is just more difficult to build and adjust to good time. It is easier to build a large watch to keep good time. That is why railroad watches had to be large.

Don

[lak611]

Was Ball the only company that offered the trade-in on the 18 size watches?

[Kent]

I don't recall seeing any documents indicating that other watch companies promoted trade-ins.

Ball was really a special case. Besides being a watch company (Ball employees adjusted all of the ORRS watches at the time) and a jobber (as Norris, Alister-Ball), Ball headed up a railroad time service inspection company. This firm contracted with jewelers in the local areas to perform the inspection services. But, these jewelers also happened to be Ball dealers.

So, Ball the watch company didn't actually take in the trade-ins, the individual Ball retailers did. What Ball did was to advertise that the local watch inspectors (the Ball dealers) would take trade-ins.