New to Forums...Illinois Watch

[tlavergne]

Hi,
First post to these forums. I have inherited a few old watches and clocks over the years from family. I have an Illinois Pocket watch that was my Great Grandfathers daily watch. He was a farmer from NW Ohio. I have searched the forums and read many threads on Illinois watches. This watch runs fabulously and I carry it often. The serial number is 2622658 and it is 17 jewels. If my research is correct it was made in 1914. The inside of the outside threaded cover has the number 342754 stamped into it and has B21402-1J hand engraved next to the serial number. Additionally it has 14240 hand engraved in the outer cover as well. I am assuming it was a common watch from those days. Any information about this watch would be greatly appreciated. We have 7 pocket watches in my extended family...one winds with a key and chimes. Pretty amazing stuff. They have fascinated me since I was a child (53 now).
Thank you.
Tom

[Fred Hansen]

Hi Tom -

Welcome to the NAWCC message board!

Is your Illinois watch marked with the name "Bunn" on the mechanism?

Fred

[tlavergne]

Yes, it says Bunn in very flowery script.

[John Cote]

Hi,
.... I am assuming it was a common watch from those days. Any information about this watch would be greatly appreciated. We have 7 pocket watches in my extended family...one winds with a key and chimes. Pretty amazing stuff. They have fascinated me since I was a child (53 now).

Tom,

Take it from another mid 50's dude who has been fascinated with watches since child hood...be careful. This is a potential serious addiction.

You 18 size 17 jewel Bunn is a fairly common watch generically, but it is sort of a scarce version of the watch. Your watch's movement should look like this:

http://www.interstatetime.com/Broke/images/17jBunnLateMvt.jpg

Only that last few runs of 17 jewel Bunns looked like this. The serial number records say there were around 1,000 but I think that not all of them were made. Most 17 jewel Bunns looked more like this:

http://www.interstatetime.com/Broke/images/17jBunnILongTailMvt.jpg

(Note that yours says "Illinois Watch Co. Springfield" while the more common variety says simply "Springfield, ILL."

I know this is not a big thing to most people and from a value/collectablility standpoint it makes very little difference. However, it makes the life of a collector interesting. There are a few of us who try to do things like put together a collection of every variety of 17 jewel Bunn. I have been trying to do it for years. I know I will probably never have on of the varieties because I only know of the existance of one of them. However, every time I think I have all but that one, another weirdo shows up.

Oh darn it! I started off warning you about the perils of becoming interested in watches and then I went into a ramble about how interesting it is.

My Bad!

[Kent]

Hi Tom:

The Illinois Watch Company was founded in 1870 as the Springfield Watch Co. of Springfield, IL. It turned out about five million watches before being sold to the Hamilton Watch Co. of Lancaster, PA, in 1928. An interesting Historical Account of the Illinois Watch Co. (http://k_singer.home.comcast.net/illinois_watch_co.htm) is available, re-typed from the pages posted on Greg Frauenhoff's Website

Information about Illinois watches may be found in American Pocket Watches Vol. 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide, William Meggers, Jr. & Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1985 (no longer in print), and in Russell W Snyder's Illinois Data Base CD, which may be obtained by an email to Jon Hanson at jonontime@aol.com Then, there are Oldwatch.com's Illinois Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/Illinoisdate.html) and the PocketWatchSite's Illinois Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/illinoisserials.html) which are an online means for determining the approximate production date of Illinois pocket watches. In general, we think of serial number vs. date lists - created by using the average number of watches produced over a period of years - to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more. This is not just for Illinois, but for other watch manufacturers as well.

According to information in the above references, your Bunn grade Illinois watch movement was built in about 1914. The particular variation (there are other variations of Bunn grade Illinois movments) that your Bunn is was only built in a total quantity of 900 in four production runs of 200 or 300 (the second run) each. Your movement is from the first run.

You can see a catalog picture and description of your Bunn movement on page S2 of the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

Note: The grade of a case is the quality of the materials and work that went into it. Each case grade was offered in many different engraved designs.

A short history of American watch cases, within the online article "Decorative Aspects of American Horology," by Philip Poniz, can be viewed on The Antiquorum Magazine (http://www.antiquorum.com/vox/june_2002/poniz/poniz.htm) website.

If you can tell us about (or post a picture of) the trade marks or names stamped into the inside back of the case, we may be able to tell you a little about the case material and its manufacturer.

Your watch is a genuine railroad standard watch. Many people have come to call any large old pocket watch, especially one with an engraving of a locomotive on the back of the case, a railroad watch. This usage is frequently is incorrect. The term "Railroad Watch" was used by the watch and jewelry trade (and is now used by collectors) to refer those high grade watches that met the requirements of railroad time service rules and standards. The railroad industry, and the railroaders themselves, referred to the watches as "Standard Watches," literally, those watches that met the railroads' time service standards.

Although the person who originally owned a watch may have worked for a railroad, it is not necessarily what could properly be called a "Railroad Watch." The use of a standard watch was only required of a portion of railroad employes (correct spelling, used in many older railroad documents), usually those directly involved in running the trains, or controlling, or affecting, the operation of trains. Other employes carried whatever watches they liked. Typical lists of those required to carry a standard watch appear in an 1892 report of Time Inspection on the Illinois Central Railroad (http://photos13.flickr.com/18116144_9bc4fcef3f_b.jpg) and as Standard Time Rule No. 2 in a 1901 Edition of Canadian Pacific Railway General, Train, and Interlocking Rules (http://photos9.flickr.com/13887167_289ea8006f_o.jpg). A later list of Burlington Route employes required to carry a standard watch is shown in these 1949 CB&Q Rules (http://static.flickr.com/45/174562668_28998da6c1_o.jpg). The Union Pacific RR website has concise explanations of Past and Present Railroad Job Descriptions (http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/jobs.shtml)

To learn more about railroad time service, time inspection and railroad standard watches, see ”Just What Is A Railroad Watch?” On the Pocket Horology, NAWCC Chapter 174 Website (http://www.pockethorology.org/) (scroll down to the title of the article). However, please keep in mind that information that became available since the above was written indicates that hunting-case watches were not specifically prohibited from railroad time service, at least, not as early as 1906-1908.

You have a very nice heirloom. Having gathered and printed out information about a family watch, it is a wise idea to write out as much as you know about the family member to whom the watch originally belonged. Then, add the names and relationships of the family members who passed it down to the current holder. Make up a booklet with this and all of the watch information and try to keep it with the watch. This way, the watch has real family heritage instead of it just being an old family watch, the identity and relationship of the original owner having been lost in the distant past.

Good luck,

[Fred Hansen]

Your great-grandfather picked a very nice watch for his daily carry. The 17 jewel Bunn was the last of the 17 jewel railroad standard grades to be made by Illinois in both 18 and 16 size.

For some perspective on where this watch fits in Illinois Watch Co.'s 18 size line, a 1914 factory advertisement shows original 18 size movement sales prices as follows ...

23 jewel Bunn Special ... $48
21 jewel Bunn Special ... $38
21 jewel A. Lincoln ... $33.50
19 jewel Bunn ... $33
17 jewel Bunn ... $30
17 jewel grade 89 ... $15.50

... so you can see that this one fits in there as being the lower cost product of the 18 size railroad grade Illinois line, but is still priced quite a bit higher than the non-railroad standard grade 89.

Fred

[tlavergne]

What tremendous information...many thanks. John, yes, my watch looks like the top picture you provided. Kent, I just spent more than an hour running through the links that you provided. I printed much of it off. My college age son has taken the family genealogy off of my hands and has run with it. One of his genealogical computer programs allow the scanning of documents as well as photos to be posted in a persons chart. We will add what info we have (much now, thanks to all of you) of this watch along with photographs of the watch to my Gr. Grandfathers file. It is little bits of info like this that brings that ancestors personality out. Fred, with the info you provided we know that he was not a flashy person but a person who wanted dependability and craftsmanship. If he was going to spend money he was going to get quality without the flash. This is something that has been taught in our family. If you are going to purchase something buy high enough quality that you only have to purchase it once. Buy the best you can afford without going overboard. Who would have thought that a simple pocket watch could add to a family's knowledge of the individual that owned it and explain, to a degree, why a family has retained certain traits over the generations. Very cool. I will post pics of the watch later this afternoon.
Thanks all.
Tom

[Kent]

Tom:

Take a look at This Little Tidbit (http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?p=336191&highlight=Illinois#post336191) that somebody else was asking about. It shows that your watch would have been accepted into railroad time service as late as 1919.

[tlavergne]

Here is an image of the face and the works of this watch.


25507

25508

[Kent]

Tom:

Its a very nice watch!

[tlavergne]

Kent, thank you. I used to carry it every day and now I tend to carry it in spurts. I'll carry it for a month and then not for a while. I worry about carrying it all of the time and damaging it, although I carry it in the watch pocket of my jeans. But what's the point of a nice working watch if you can't use it. I really enjoy old things that still have relevance and use in today's world. Although digital devices have their place I prefer the older stuff. My wrist watch is a Longines that my Dad bought in France in the mid-1950's when they lived there. My stereo is a Marantz from 1970 and my daily driver car is a 1967 VW bus. Something draws me to older things. I guess it is because there is art and craftsmanship involved as well as the utilitarian aspects.
Again, thank you for your comments.
tom

[John Cote]

Here is an image of the face and the works of this watch.


Your watch is sort of an interesting version of an interesting version. Most of the later 17 jewel Bunns with movements marked like yours also have a later version of the Bunn dial without the fancy Gothic type where it says the company name. I have seen some with the same dial as yours but I have always wondered whether someone had switched dials. Since I can probably assume that yours has the original dial, we can assume that some of these later watches came from the factory with the older dial (nicer looking dial anyway).

Here is a link to a page from my site which features a lot of the typical 18 size Bunn dials:

http://www.interstatetime.com/Broke/Slide_32.htm

[Kent]

Tom:

Watches that are carried daily need to be cleaned and oiled at regular intervals. Railroad time service rules varied, but requirements for cleaning on a basis of once every year and a half were typical for railroaders at the turn of the century. By the mid-1920’s this was extended to two year intervals.

The “Sears, Roebuck and Co., Inc. Catalogue No. 104,” Chicago, IL, 1897, reprinted by Chelsea House, Philadelphia, PA, 1968 had this to say on page 371:

“We Guarantee for Five Years All the movements sold by us. This does not refer to the life of the movement, but that we will for five years from date of purchase, correct free of charge any fault which may occur from defective material or workmanship. Any well made movement will run a lifetime if properly cared for.
“Remember That your watch should not run longer than one and one-half years without having the old oil cleaned off and fresh oil supplied. This must be done at the expense of the purchaser.
“The balance wheel of all modern watches makes 18,000 beats or revolutions per hour; 432,000 per day, or 157,788,000 per year. An engine or sewing machine will be oiled several times per day, but we have known people to carry a watch for ten years without having it cleaned or fresh oil applied.
“Usually, a movement thus treated is of no value, being entirely worn out. Take good care of your watch if you wish it to perform its duty properly, for it is a very delicate machine. Our charge for cleaning and oiling is 75 cents. The regular retail price is $1.50.”

Watch cleaning and oiling costs a bit more today than it did a hundred years ago. Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Also, check out Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/faq.html) on the Pocket Watch Site.

Also, Ed Ueberall, of The Escapement has put together some notes on the Use And Care of Your Vintage Watch (http://k_singer.home.comcast.net/use_and_care_of_your_vintage_wat.htm) that may be helpful.

Service Frequency
If the watch is run continually, a cleaning and oiling is needed every 3-5 years. If you're only going to wear your watch occasionally, this ought to be done once at the onset and about every ten years thereafter. If you're not going to carry it (or run it), don't bother getting it serviced. Many of the watches in my collection (that aren't run) haven't been cleaned and oiled in 20 or 30 years or more.

I try to get the railroad standard watch that I carry on a daily basis - a Hamilton 992B - serviced every two years because that's what most of the railroad time service rules required by the time the 992B was built. I recognize that this is considered extreme, or overkill, but nevertheless, I've carried my watch for over twenty five years and it is still in as good mechanical condition as when I got it, keeping accurate time within mere seconds per month.

[Nigel Harrison]

Tom,

Take it from another mid 50's dude who has been fascinated with watches since child hood...be careful. This is a potential serious addiction.

You 18 size 17 jewel Bunn is a fairly common watch generically, but it is sort of a scarce version of the watch. Your watch's movement should look like this:

http://www.interstatetime.com/Broke/images/17jBunnLateMvt.jpg

Only that last few runs of 17 jewel Bunns looked like this. The serial number records say there were around 1,000 but I think that not all of them were made. Most 17 jewel Bunns looked more like this:

http://www.interstatetime.com/Broke/images/17jBunnILongTailMvt.jpg

(Note that yours says "Illinois Watch Co. Springfield" while the more common variety says simply "Springfield, ILL."

I know this is not a big thing to most people and from a value/collectablility standpoint it makes very little difference. However, it makes the life of a collector interesting. There are a few of us who try to do things like put together a collection of every variety of 17 jewel Bunn. I have been trying to do it for years. I know I will probably never have on of the varieties because I only know of the existance of one of them. However, every time I think I have all but that one, another weirdo shows up.

Oh darn it! I started off warning you about the perils of becoming interested in watches and then I went into a ramble about how interesting it is.

My Bad!

Hi John,

Just out of interest, which is the one off bunn you are chasing? I am interested.

Regards,

Nigel Harrison.