Waltham movement manufacturing date

[texasgunrunner]

I am new to the world of pocket watch collecting, and I just bought my first vintage watch. After doing some research, I think the watch I purchased may have been recased. According to the serial #on the movement, it looks like it was manufactured sometime in 1913. The serial # also seems to indicate this movement should be in a hunter case, but it is an open face watch with the stem at the 9:00 position. After reading other posts here, it seems that the watch manufacturers didn't case their own movements at the factory until sometime in the 1920's. Is there any way to determine if this may be the original case? The inside of the case cover is marked "Illinois Watch Case Co. Spartan 0571355. Is there a database of watch cases to track the manufacturing date of the case? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Kent]

Hi texasgunrunner:

Welcome to the NAWCC American Pocket Watch Message Board!

I've got to admit it, I'm confused. For the movement, made to go in a hunting case (stem at 3 o'clock, seconds bit at 6 o'clock) to be in an open-face case, the stem should be at the 3 o'clock position, unless a "conversion dial" was. This would put the winding stem at the hour figure '12.' The configuration places the seconds bit at the 3 o'clock position. This 16-Size Example (http://static.flickr.com/30/55259278_65c11ed667_o.jpg) was made by the Hampden Watch Co. for its model 1, grade No. 107.

Now, if a dial like this was to be used on a movement made to go in an open-face case. Then the stem would end up at the 9 o'clock position (with the seconds bit at the 3 o'clock position).

I think that the Illinois Watch Case Co. Spartan cases are depression-era or later and have little or no pendant (the crown just about sits on the edge of the case). That would make the case quite a bit later than the movement and not likely to be original. If the movement had originally been in a solid gold hunting case, which was sold for the gold value during the depression (or anytime later), then it would make sense for it to be recased into the Spartan case.

Can you post some pictures? What is the serial number on the movement?

[Dr. Jon]

Winding at 9 o'clock is unusual. When a hunter movement is cased in an open face scare it winds at 3 o'clock.

before factory casing any movement could go into any case it would come close to fitting and many people did a strange things.

HUnter cases has a lot of gold and the original case if ot the one you have could have been scrapped for its gold.

If you look at the case carefully from the movement side, yu may see additional marks from case screws. These would tell you another movement was in teh case before yours.

For the most part we do not have enough case manufacturer information to date cases. I did fnd the the Illinois watch case cmpany name was registered in 1890, so unless Spartan turns out to be a later trade mark, the case could be original.

For some rare watches full orinality is important for assessing high values but for the most part I would not let a case switch ruin enjoyment of the watch.

[texasgunrunner]

Sorry, guys. The stem is in the 3:00 position. Typo! There aren't any scratches or dings inside the back cover of the case. The serial # on the movement is 18940955, and it is a 17 jewel. I also took some photos.

[Kent]

texasgunrunner:

My apologies for not saying so earlier, but there is very little information about case serial numbers (except for what a few researchers have accumulated for some factory-cased watches). Although a lot can be learned about an American watch by knowing the movement's serial number, there seems to be very few surviving records from the watch case companies. So, other than studying the style of the case and making an educated guess as to which era it belongs, it is extremely difficult to trace the case's history. If the case still contains the movement it originally housed, an approximate date (within a year or three) can be assigned to the case. Also, there don't seem to be any surviving records from watch case companies linking case serial numbers to specific cases, their grades, sizes & etc. About the only way to find out more about the specific model case on a watch would be to go through old jewelry trade magazines and catalogs, hoping to find a picture of one that matches.

The case on your watch is definately from the late 1920s, or later. It is highly unlikely that this was not the original case that the movement was put into. Although there was a long lag in selling hunting-case watches as they fell out of favor in the first decade or two of the twentieth century, and although there were a significant number of hunting-case movements that were discounted to move them out of inventory (with the jewelers mounting them in open-face cases - like your watch - to create inexpensive watches), this was long over by the time that the Spartan case hit the market.

Your watch movement is a 16-size, grade number 625. You can see a picture and brief catalog description of it on page W4 of the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

This is a standard size watch and it will fit in a "normal" 16-size hunting-case. You can look elsewhere on the Elgin Watch Collectors Site to see ads of watches and cases from the 'teens to see what an apprpriate case would look like.

Good luck

[texasgunrunner]

Thanks for the information, it's been really helpful and answered some questions I had about this great watch. Just out of curiosity, did I do good paying $125 for this piece as a first addition to a new collection?

[Don Dahlberg]

Sorry, It is against our rules to discuss value.

Your case looks like a replacement case to me. They were usually of base metal with a nickel finish. Your movement dates about 1914, while the case dates from the mid 1920s or later. When the old hunter case wore out, they purchased a inexpensive base metal case to replace it. An open face case was also less expensive and more in style than a hunter case. It is probably not a case switch, but an old case being replaced with a new case.

Don

[Kent]

Thanks for the information, it's been really helpful and answered some questions I had about this great watch. Just out of curiosity, did I do good paying $125 for this piece as a first addition to a new collection?

As Don said, we're not permitted to discuss specific values here.

However, if you are going to be buying more watches, I strongly urge you to Join The National Association of Watch And Clock Collectors (NAWCC) (http://www.nawcc.org/headquarters/join/join.htm). This will enable you to attend regional and national conventions and be permitted into the mart (the sales area) where watches (and other horological items) are sold and traded at what might be consider as "the wholesale level." The marts are only open to members in good standing, and those admitted under special programs.

Also as a member, you'll gaining access to the NAWCC Library and Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm). Membership entitles you to borrow, by mail, circulating copies of books, back issues of the NAWCC Bulletin (http://www.nawcc.org/pub/pub.htm), microfilms, DVDs and video tapes from the NAWCC Library. You'll find both books, DVDs and tapes on basic (and also more complex) watch cleaning and repair, as well as ones on history and collecting. Many commercial video tapes are available on loan from the library. You can also Purchase Back Issues of the Bulletin (http://www.nawccstore.org/bin/category.asp?category=99). Recent, individual issues of the Bulletin are available also - ask about them when you go to order.

Good luck,

[Jon Hanson]

Check out ebay or one of the dealers here in a private email for a value.

Jeff Hess is a big dealer, 60,000+ sales on ebay; watchdude@AOL.COM