Interesting Waltham

[Tom McIntyre]

Does anyone know who bought the interesting Waltham this afternoon at the Sotheby's sale in New York?

I think that $266.500 is probably the world record for an American watch.

Perhaps the buyer could take some pictures and post them here.

This link may not work since it is to a display facility rather than just a web page.

Waltham world record (http://www.sothebys.com/app/ecatalogue/ecat.do?dispatch=displayImageViewer&image_number=1&lot_id=159487349&SIZE=smaller)

It does seem to work for me at least.

[Jon Hanson]

foreign money?

[Jon Hanson]

tagline: and it wasn't even a minute!:eek:

[Tom McIntyre]

It might have gone to Japan. There has historically been a strong market there for unusual Walthams and it is possible the Swiss Waltham Co. could justify the purchase as a marketing gambit to call attention to the brand. Of course, there had to be two bidders. The reserve was around $50K or maybe less.

I figured it was a local contest here between Wellesley and Hollis MA. :D :o

[richiec]

And I was concerned about bidding $300 for a watch the other night. Was this a one off experiment? What movement was it based on, according to the serial number it showed a model 1884 which didn't look right.

[Tom McIntyre]

It is a model 1884 fitted out in the New York gold shop by C. H. Meylan (his own self) with 5 minute repeating, split second chronograph, perpetual calendar and moon phase. Meylan's watch company was located in Geneva/Locle Switzerland, but he lived in New York and moonlighted for Waltham.

It was, in a sense, a Waltham production watch since Waltham did advertise these complicated watches as being available with all the features. There are a couple of other similar watches. I think this is the only 5 minute "grand complication" by Waltham.

English grand complications were selling around $50,000 when I was last paying attention about 20 years ago.

[Tom McIntyre]

Since the Sotheby's picture of the movement does not show much, I will post some pictures of some of the poor cousins of this watch.
These include a chronograph of a slightly different design and the 5 minute repeater mechanism that is included in the subject watch.

The perpetual calendar is roughly equal in complication to the 5 minute repeater but is very rarely seen.

The complicated chronograph is a split second chronograph with register. It is in the unrestored, as found, condition but shows the stuff. The other chronograph is a simple chronograph with register.

[Jon Hanson]

:mad:

[Tom McIntyre]

:confused:

[Jon Hanson]

:mad::mad:

[richiec]

Oh, you two, stop with the faces. What do you do with all of those levers and springs?

[Jon Hanson]

huh?

[Veritas]

Looks complicated to me Tom.
I don,t think i would have the experience to clean and oil that one.:rolleyes:

[Tom McIntyre]

Perhaps we could create a tutorial on complicated watches. I would not be competent to create it, but we have many members who could.

[ronwatch]

On October 16th 2008 Sotheby’s auctioned a Waltham PW for $ 266,500 (including buyers premium). I believe this is a world record for an American watch and may not be topped in the future. Of course this was a special example of which possibly only 10 (actual account may not be known) were produced by Waltham and each of the 10 varied in their complexity. This record may not be seen again for an American PW. I believe this has the most complications produced by Waltham. I’m sure there are many that would like to know the background of these special examples ie: was the entire watch made by Waltham, was the dial a custom Swiss addition, is the chrono by Waltham, etc. I’m sure Jon Hanson can provide the answers and fill in the blanks. Click on or past link to Sotheby’s for the watch and results.

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159487349

[StanJS]

There is an earlier discussion here:

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=43760

Cheers,
Stan

[ronwatch]

I see the previous discussion by Tom, but link does not go to Sotherbys. The link above brings you to the page even if you do not sign in.
Ron

[Tom McIntyre]

I merged these two threads so we could see the result link in the original post. The results link was not yet up when the first post was made.;)

[Jon Hanson]

On October 16th 2008 Sotheby’s auctioned a Waltham PW for $ 266,500 (including buyers premium). I believe this is a world record for an American watch and may not be topped in the future. Of course this was a special example of which possibly only 10 (actual account may not be known) were produced by Waltham and each of the 10 varied in their complexity. This record may not be seen again for an American PW. I believe this has the most complications produced by Waltham. I’m sure there are many that would like to know the background of these special examples ie: was the entire watch made by Waltham, was the dial a custom Swiss addition, is the chrono by Waltham, etc. I’m sure Jon Hanson can provide the answers and fill in the blanks. Click on or past link to Sotheby’s for the watch and results.

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159487349 (http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159487349)

Hi Ron,

C H MEYLAN finished the complications for Waltham in NY

the dial MUST be Swiss, as a one of (kind)--needs to be removed and the back viewed, but I am certain it is Swiss

a run of 10, all different were made; about 5 are known in this 10 piece run

Jon

[Jeff Hess]

A truly stunning time piece and even more stunning auction result.

I find it encouraging to see the worldwide interest in American Watches that pat 8 years or so.

Very encouraging.

Great thread!

[Jon Hanson]

There are quite a few other unique early American watches that might bring similar record prices, if they were ever to hit the auction block, which I doubt. And, remember, the Waltham had the repeater and complication features which captures world wide interest.

BUT, the BIG question is: where did the multiple bidding stop and the one on one bidding carry on? One bidder goes down in an airplane crash next week and the watch drops back in price to the pack bidding price, plus one bid!

THEN, there is the fact that if the watch were to be placed up soon again, and all things being equal (exchange rate, demand, market levels, etc.) and Sotheby commissions paid for the re-listing, someone would take a BIG bath! Last man in could be very dangerous!

In any event, it as a real watch :Party: !

[Tom McIntyre]

I wonder what Sotheby's take was on this watch. For watches below $100K they normally will get 40% to 50% of the final loaded price. This one may have been cheap or free to list since they have handled so much for the Atwood's in recent years. Still the estimate was under $70,000 so there may not have been any special deal in place.

You are right that the next guy who brings it in for sale will be looking at no more than 60% of the final value in his pocket.

If their take was actually over $100K, someone might be getting a nice holiday bonus. :o

[Jeff Hess]

Tom,

I am confused about a couple of things.

first, I guess you are not a believer in the value and desirability of American Watches if you think the next guy will "take a bath".

Why should American watches differ from rare Pateks and such that continue (with a few corrections) to up and up!?

Secondly, Sothebys only takes 6% or so for important watches and sometimes will do very important watches for zero from the seller. They rarely go short on the buyers commission though which usually runs 10 to 20 %.

Jeff

[Jon Hanson]

TOM, YOU ARE QUITE CORRECT.

Besides a negotiated commission, there is insurance, storage and pictures costs.

AND, 20% of the total sale was the buyer's premium!!!

[Jeff Hess]

Jon,

Typically, insurance is only 1.5% and this can be waived. Pictures charges while steep, percentage wise, for cheaper watches are minimal for more expensive items. And they too are often waived for more important pieces.


Jeff

Cheers!

[Tom McIntyre]

Jeff,

The ratchet effect of auction or brokerage fees affects all investments. When the "brokerage" fee is over 20% of the transaction cost it takes a remarkable level of increase or inflation to keep up. At a minimum the watch must sell for $300K at its next sale for the buyer to break even. I suspect, as apparently does Jon, that the increment will be rather higher than that.

This particular watch is a unique example and this increase is a unique jump. There were quite a few great American watches in the previous sale, but the prices were all well within the $50,000 to $70,000 that Sotheby's estimated on this watch.

I think the watch is wonderful and I think American watches are a great buy, but this particular transaction appears to be an anomaly.

[Jon Hanson]

Jon,

Typically, insurance is only 1.5% and this can be waived. Pictures charges while steep, percentage wise, for cheaper watches are minimal for more expensive items. And they too are often waived for more important pieces.


Jeff

This all adds up to the total commission charged; plus, scale of buyers' premiums==a great expense (or cost to the seller)!

Cheers!

This all adds up to the total commission charged; add in the sliding scale buyers' premium and it all adds up to an expensive ultimate cost to the seller!

[ronwatch]

Hi Ron,

C H MEYLAN finished the complications for Waltham in NY

the dial MUST be Swiss, as a one of (kind)--needs to be removed and the back viewed, but I am certain it is Swiss

a run of 10, all different were made; about 5 are known in this 10 piece run

Jon
Thanks Jon
I was surprized when it went over 100K, but in todays world, this is a bargin compared to the rare important, complicated European PWs that have sold and the esitmates on the upcomming November auctions in Geneva and Frankfurt.
Ron

[Hudson777]

How many of the waltham serial numbers 1 thru 17 are known to still exist?

[Jon Hanson]

5 examples

[Tom McIntyre]

It is interesting that numbers 1 through 17 are probably not the earliest Walthams.

Dennison originally attempted, unsuccessfully, to build an 8 day watch. When it could not be made to run, Stratton was hired to salvage the tools and material and he came up with the design for the Warren watch.

Dennison hired the Marsh Brothers to continue work on the 8 day idea and watches 1 to 17 were the result, along with a few others that were individually marked.

It is possible that the Marsh Brothers produced watches before Stratton did, but Warren 18 is certainly the first production watch from the efforts that became Waltham and it is likely that it is the earliest also. It certainly contains the earliest design content.

Warren > Curtis > Dennison, Howard & Davis > 1857 model

There is a nice picture and description of Warren 18 (http://www.americanhorologe.com/Warren/warren.aspx) on the American Horologe (http://www.americanhorologe.com) web site courtesy of John Cote