Illinois Plymouth 16s

[Bryan Eyring]

Hello All;

I just acquired this 16s Illinois Plymouth. Am I correct in my determination that TP on this model (175) is only 400? Should this be in a Plymouth marked case or were these sold to Sears as uncased movements? Is there any collector interest for these Sears watches?

Regards,
Bryan Eyring
132532

[Kent]

Yes, Russell W Snyder's Illinois Data Base (the CD of which may be obtained by an email to Jon Hanson at jonontime@aol.com) shows that there were two runs totaling 400 movements.

The 1909 Sears, Roebuck catalog shows that the Plymouth movements could have been ordered in a variety of cases, not necessarily marked Plymouth or with a Sears, Roebuck house label. Sears, Roebuck obtained the Plymouth movements from Illinois without cases, the same as it did with movements from Waltham, Elgin, Hampden and other companies.

[bkerr]

Neat watch, I'll see you this weekend.

[Fred Hansen]

Nice watch Bryan!

As you know I've been keeping track of Illinois private-labels for a while now and with your watch added today I have data for around 85 to 90 Plymouths now in my notes. I'll post some info here from this data, first some general overview ...

The 18 size Plymouths were made in the 17 jewel grades 64, 69, and 79 and also were made in the 15 jewel grade 59. The 16 size Plymouths were made in the 17 jewel grade 175 (your watch) and also the 15 jewel grade 171 in both a nickel and a damaskeened gilt version. Most of these variants were made in both open face and hunting case versions. The 18 and 16 size Plymouths most often came with "Plymouth Watch Co., USA" signed dials, but I have seen some with unsigned fancy style dials instead and I've seen enough of these and they are similar enough in style that I believe this must have been an original option. The Meggers book also notes production of Plymouths in 12 and 6 sizes, I've seen some of these and a friend of mine collects them but I haven't kept any notes on the 12 or 6 size Plymouths.

And now to your watch ...

The Illinois grade 175 had a total production of around 15,000 in the 17 jewel open face version. But most of these watches were a typical 3/4 plate design either factory marked or with a variety of private-labels, and only a smaller number of the grade 175 had a one finger bridge plate design. The grade 175 with a one finger design were the

- Plymouth Watch Co. (single finger bridge over the 3rd wheel)

- Interstate Chronometer (also had the single finger bridge over the 3rd wheel and like the Plymouth this was also a Sears product)

- Washington Watch Co. "Senate" (this one has the single finger bridge over the escape wheel, and these were a Montgomery Ward product)

In studying my notes, I've seen open face grade 175 Plymouths like your watch in the following runs ...

1728201 - 1728450
1809101 - 1809350
1912251 - 1912400
1947766 - 1947915

Also a note about the Plymouths is that consecutive runs of different grades look to have been set aside for Plymouth marked watches. So a cluster of 500 or 1000 serial numbers might have had 5 runs in 3 different sizes, but from what I am seeing it looks like all watches in these type clusters would have been marked Plymouth. This type clustering of larger order private-label watches was also found commonly among the Washington Watch Co. marked movements. One of these large Plymouth "clusters" looks to be between serials 1735501 and 1736000, and there is a grade 175 open face run in there at serials 1735701 to 1735780. I haven't seen a watch from this run yet, but I think it is likely that when one does show up it will be a Plymouth.

So assuming that all watches in these runs were marked for Plymouth (I think possible but you know what they say about assumptions!) and including the run I think is likely, I think the production of your watch might be at these serials (with my observations from each run) ...

1728201 - 1728450 (3 Plymouths noted)
1735701 - 1735780 (none yet seen)
1809101 - 1809350 (2 Plymouths noted)
1912251 - 1912400 (6 Plymouths noted)
1947766 - 1947915 (1 Plymouth noted)

... for a possible total production of 880 like your watch.

Now for the total production of open face grade 175 with this plate layout, the Interstate Chronometers need to be added to the total. I believe there was one run of 17 jewel grade 175 open face Interstate Chronometer with a total of 150 watches made. So putting these together would make a possible total of 1030 open face grade 175 Illinois with this 3rd wheel single finger bridge plate design, all made for Sears and in two different names.

Fred

[Bryan Eyring]

Very well presented Fred - thank you for the synopsis. It appears that 3 of the grade 175 runs recorded in the database are then in fact Plymouth runs. I must say that this is my first Illinois with this plate configuration and I was not aware that it was distinctly for Sears. It seems like an awful lot of work to go through for ~1000 units but then again back then overhead and labor were comparatively cheap.....
Thanks again for your valuable analysis and keep up the good work!

Kent - thank you for the preliminary information regarding uncased movements - I did not know this.

Bob - See you Sunday - will bring this along for you to see!

Regards,
Bryan