Mid-18th century pair-case watch

[Gan]

A more or less typical English mid-18th century pair-case, fusee-verge, watch is signed on its back-plate: ‘Wilerson, 1023, London’.
http://static.flickr.com/51/128559341_9b442ff5d7.jpg
This maker is not recorded by Britten’s nor by Baillie. The movement is housed in an inner-case (box) hallmarked in London for 1755. Maker’s mark is I.L (likely John Laithwait). Any information on Wilerson or suggestions how to obtain such information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in anticipation.

[Gan]

A more or less typical English mid-18th century pair-case, fusee-verge, watch is signed on its back-plate: ‘Wilerson, 1023, London’.
http://static.flickr.com/51/128559341_9b442ff5d7.jpg
This maker is not recorded by Britten’s nor by Baillie. The movement is housed in an inner-case (box) hallmarked in London for 1755. Maker’s mark is I.L (likely John Laithwait). Any information on Wilerson or suggestions how to obtain such information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in anticipation.

[Don Dahlberg]

Make sure have read the hallmarks correctly. The letters are reused every few decades. I would have thought that your movement was a bit earlier from the balance cock. Of course the case could be younger than the movement.

If the make is not in Britten, then you should check Loomes. If you are a member of NAWCC, you can send in a request to research@nawcc.org

Don

[Doc Mark]

Greetings,

Though I am far from an expert on these things, your watch has a Swiss look to it, to me. I note the use of Roman Numerals on the regulator, and also the shallow engraving. The basic look of your watch makes me thing that it might have been made in Switzerland, and might be what it now called a "Swiss fake", or a watch that was meant to look English, and was marked "London", but was not of English make. I have one of these myself, and yours reminds me, a little, of mine. Please note that your watch very well might have been made in the mid-18th century. But, in my opinion, and this is worth what you paid to read this, it is not of English make. I like my own "Swiss fake", quite a lot, actually, and it is a nicely made watch, as yours appears to be. Have fun with it, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Gan]

Thanks are due to Dr. Dahlberg for his prompt comments on my query. Certainly, he was right emphasizing that the broad foot of the cock might indicate that the movement might have been noticeably older than its hallmarked box (outer case). This was the prime reason why my query on the movement maker was placed on this MB. It has been, and still is, hoped that the MB readers, including overseas collectors, may provide some vital information on this special subject. Such information would be outside the routine one (notwithstanding its value) expected from volunteer researches at Columbia.

Doc Mark graciously shared with us his intuitive feelings that the discussed movement may be of Swiss origin. Although nobody can be absolutely sure in this respect (see my paper in the NAWCC Bulletin Nr. 344 of 2003), I am not yet completely persuaded that this might be a case. Thank you.

[Don Dahlberg]

I do not remember getting this question at Columbia. Between the library and this message board I read so many questions that I confuse where I have seen the question. Anyway, we do have some books on apprenticeships in London. Most of them are clock, but many people did both clocks and watches. Some of the apprenticeship lists also cover watch apprenticeships. If I have not already looked for you, send your question to research@nawcc.org and I'll take a look.

Don

[Lionel]

The movement is not earlier than mid-18th century, and it corresponds well to the 1755 hallmarked date of the box. The piercing around the rim of the table is classic mid-18th century. Wide feet were being made up into the mid-18th century and do not provide a sufficient condition for an earlier attribution.

[Don Dahlberg]

Lionel,

Could you talk more about the piercing? I am trying to learn to date English watches.

Don

[Lionel]

Don,
Take another look at the photo Gan provided. Pay particular attention to the narrow solid rim of the table. Notice that the table does not end with this rim, and that there is a further band beyond the solid one, which is pierced with what looks like loops, giving the outermost circumference of the table a wavy look. This is a quirk of mid-18th century style and is a sure sign that the movement is
mid-18th century. Not all mid-18th century watches had this feature, of course. And before mid-18th century, this pierced band was not present at all and there was just a solid band back as far as, say, the 1690s (with one or two ealier exceptions), and before that, no solid band around the table at all. I am not at home so cannot consult my library and refer you to some illutrations in a publication, but if you want to compare Gan's 18th century movement with an earlier movement with just a solid table rim, take a look at the pocketwatch movement on Steve Bogoff's web site (item #5581).

Lionel

[Gan]

I am very impressed and pleased with Lionel’s comments of 16 & 17th April. On one hand, he indirectly confirmed the authenticity of the discussed movement in terms of the country of origin and the date of its production. On the other hand, he silently emphasized the importance of using the information on design and decoration style in analysis of older watch movements. To feel comfortable in the study of English mid-18th century movements certainly is not enough to get acquainted with Baillie’s “Watches” and Jagger’s “Artistry” (a lot of mistakes in the latter). With my sincere thanks to Lionel I have additional question for him: what he would recommend to read on the subject? Certainly, a study of individual movements may be quite rewarding, but it is a life-long occupation. Not directly looking for short-cuts, I would enjoy even move information that would be at least partially processed.

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Gan,

I would very much like to see more photos of your fusee. It would be wonderful to see the movement, from different sides, and also the dial, cases, etc.. Would it be possible for you to post more detailed photos of your watch? Thanks, very much, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Gan]

Following the request of Doc Mark, presented are some additional photographs of the discussed watch. Its hands and dial are obvious replacements and, therefore, are not shown. Two movement’s side views (mainspring set-up mechanism between the plates and counter-potence) are given here:

http://static.flickr.com/54/131488366_0bcd9e1e53.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/48/131488966_19964b427a.jpg

The next picture shows the hallmarks of the sterling silver box:

http://static.flickr.com/51/131489507_2c9b572753.jpg

The outer case was made of gilded brass. Originally it was likely covered by tortoiseshell, which is now missing. The holes in the case are remains of silver or gold pins decoration. It was possibly a monogram that was not deciphered yet.

http://static.flickr.com/54/131486935_0755710641.jpg

[Lionel]

Gan,
Here's a list of books/sources that I have found helpful. The first four have useful llustrations.

Title: The Camerer Cuss Book of Antique Watches.
Author: T. P. Camerer Cuss

(Lots of useful high quality photos with a general, historical introduction at the beginning.)

Title: Watches: A Complete History of the Technical and Decorative Development of the Watch.
Author: Cecil Clutton and George Daniels.

(Many useful photos at back. Make sure you get the 1979 edition.)

Title: Britten's Old Clocks and Watches and their Makers.

(Enough photos to make this worthwhile, and a good general history, as well as a nice list of makers' names and dates at back with info. that is not necessarily in the Baillie work. Many editions of this book. Mine is the 8th. Go for whatever is the latest edition - 9th I think.)

Title: English Watches
Author: J. F. Hayward

(Photos are not as high quality as in some of the above books, but focuses on English watches Worth having if you can find it.)

Title: Time & Space: Measuring Instruments from 15th to the 19th Century.
Author: S. Guye and Henri Michel

(This book focuses not just on watches but on astrolabes and other measuring instruments. I'm recommending it because some of the watch photos are such high quality. The watch section has some very nice photos, although the book focuses more on continental watches than on English ones.)

Other sources of photos for study:

The dealer: Pieces of Time operates a web site. They have offered a CDRom of many of their catalogues. Descriptions tend to be accurate and some very nice photos of watches. I don't know whether they are still offering the CDRom. You might check. If they are not offering it, you could spend some time studying the photos in the back catalogues that they have on their site.)

The Auction House: Antiquorum, produces catalogues of the collections they auction off. A good one would be the Sandberg Collection, auctioned off in 2001. An Antiquorum publication of this catalogue was created, which has lots of watch photos in it. You might find this for sale at a horological bookseller, such as Shenton Books, but be prepared to pay a lot for it. If you cannot find the publication, the entire catalogue of photos can be accessed via Antiquorum's site. You can select for high definition photos. In fact, the Sandberg photos are not as high quality as the photos in some of the later catalogues, so do explore.)

Some general reference books:

Title: Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World.
Author: G. H. Baillie (vol 1), B. Loomes (vol 2).

(In one of your earlier posts you seem to discount this book, but it is in fact a very useful tool for dating watches. When presented with a watch for dating, the very first publication that a horologist will likely reach for is this one. It has not worked for your present watch, but it does help to quickly date a great many watches and well worth having if you intend to build a collection of verge watches.)

Title: Early English Watch Case Makers of England 1631 - 1720.
Author: P. T. Priestley

(Another useful reference book for quick dating if you acquire an English watch with the case makers marks. There's a second volume of this, which covers the period from 1720 to 1920.)

Some of the above works are out of print, so you'd have to look around for them. If you joined the NAWCC I think you'd have access to their library, which I am sure contains many, if not all of the books I've suggested.

Lionel

[Gan]

Lionel,

I am deeply moved by your effort and time you have given us in preparation of the list of information sources on the subject. It is a pity that I didn’t get such a list some 30 years ago when I started to be interested in horology. Perhaps, my ‘education’ would be easier. Presently, I own and have studied practically all the mentioned books, except perhaps “Time & Space” by Guye & Michel (but including the catalogue of the Sandberg Collection). Nevertheless, even now I do not feel ‘saturated’ with information and am not ready for judgments on many particular cases. As I said before in my query: ‘Not directly looking for short-cuts, I would enjoy even more the information that would be at least partially processed.’ Processing data on style and design is certainly very difficult and not necessarily is fully pursued in many informative books. Thank you for your help. Your intentions are greatly appreciated.

[Doc Mark]

Good Evening, Gan, and All,

Many thanks for the great photos of your fusee. Very nice, indeed! It appears to be in good condition, too. Does it run, and keep respectable verge time? I only have about a dozen verge fusees, but like them very much, and use several of them at special 18th century Living History events, at which I want to have the proper timepiece. Several of mine actually keep fairly good time, too, which I find very interesting, given their age.

I have a question concerning the touch marks in the photo you posted. I have never seen touch mark cameos like the ones on your watch. As I noted in my original response to your questions, I am certainly not an expert, nor would I ever pass myself off as one. But, I would appreciate someone educating me concerning the interesting shapes of the cameos on your watch cases. I looked through all the books I have on hand, many of which were mentioned by Lionel, and also Phillip Priestly's books on watch case makers, and can find no cameos that resemble the ones on your cases. Additionally, I inspected every 18th century fusee that I own, and again can find no cameos like the ones shown in the photo you posted. Does this have any significance at all? Or, is it just an anomaly, and of no importance? Like you, I am trying to learn as much as I can about 18th century pocket watches, their styles, and types, and their makers. So, any information that can answer my question on the touch mark cameos will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, again, for the wonderful photos! I think you have a very nice fusee, and look forward to hearing what others might tell us about it. I am hoping that Oliver Mundy might be able to shed some more light on your watch, and look forward to reading his thoughts on it. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Joe Jones]

Hello All,
About the hallmarks. I checked with a few reference books on old silver that I have handy. That shape was used from 1739, with the letter d, until the cycle was completed with the letter u in 1755. It is the only time that particular shape was used, at least in London. Based on these, I concur with the date of 1755 in the hallmarks. I considered that it may be an n placed upside down, but using the shape of the cameo as a guide, the letter is a u. Priestley's NAWCC supplement of 1994 has them on page 86, but they don't show the shape of the cameo as plainly as other reference books, such as Wyler's "The Book of Old Silver."
I checked Loomes, Don, Wilerson is not in there either.
Regarding the advice to join NAWCC, I have been a member for well over 30 years. It has been an invaluable source of information and networking. Only wish that I had joined sooner.
Teriffic watch, Gan, thank you for posting the photos. Vicarious thrills are great.
And thanks to those who posted information regarding the balance cock. There is much to be learned, and this forum is a great teaching/sharing tool.
Joe

[Doc Mark]

HI, Joe,

Darned if you aren't 100% correct! I checked in my copy of Wyler's "Old Silver", and there the mark is, just as you say! Thanks, very much! I also see what you mean about the Priestly book, but when I checked in that book previously, I did not see the correlation between the marks. Now, I do. But, you are right, the marks are better shown in the Wyler book. Thanks, again, and I agree with you about being a NAWCC member. Though I'm still a greenhorn, I have been a member for several years now, and very much enjoy it! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc Mark

[Oliver Mundy]

One small addition to Lionel's excellent note on the styles of balance-cock decoration: - Until about 1740 the piercing of the table was usually symmetrical about the vertical axis - in other words, the left and right halves of the table (viewed with the foot at the bottom) are mirror-images. In Gan's watch, by contrast, the table is asymmetrical in layout. This seems entirely consistent with the hallmark date.

The name 'Wilerson' looks rather like one of the not-quite-English names devised by Swiss or possibly Dutch makers for the British market. Other examples are 'Samson', 'Tarts' and'Simpton'; I have a movement signed with the last of these names whose layout is virtually identical with that of Gan's movement.

Oliver Mundy.