Unknown Waltham Train Pocket Watch

[ogalirish]

Hi,
My stepdad left me a watch that belonged to his father. It's a train watch because there's a fast moving train on the back. The inside of the back is printed Illinois Watch Case Co. & Spartan also #'s 3476 Pop or Pep at the top and 118034 below the IL info. inside the watch it reads A.W.W. Co. Waltham MASS. with #'s 22991858. I know nothing about this watch. Can someone tell me anything about this watch. Thanks :bang:

[harold]

Go to this web site and enter your serial number from the movent and it will tell you detail information about the watch.

http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/walsernum.htm

[ogalirish]

Go to this web site and enter your serial number from the movent and it will tell you detail information about the watch.

http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/walsernum.htm

[ogalirish]

Thanks Harold,

Details to you is quite possibly Greek to me. I got a model #1908, material U, size 16, plate 3/4. style OF, comment 99, Grade 610, jewels 7 and Bal Brequet Spring. Will I receive more information in English?

Thanks for your time.

[lak611]

Just because a watch has a picture of a train on the case does not make it a railroad watch. This articleClick Here (http://www.pockethorology.org/Railroad/Railroad.htm) has a detailed description of railroad standard watches.

[ogalirish]

Laura,

I've been reading so much on this topic today I may not be able to get out of this chair!

My watch only has 7 jewels and it's not adjustable. What it is not is a railroad watch. Minimum requirements 100 years ago for the catagory of railroad watch eliminates mine.

I thank both you and Harold for the information. The sight Harold recommended gave me the info. of specifications (once I caught on to the available info.) and your sight informed me there's no need to go out and buy additional insurance because of the watch. :~( My kids will inherit and not so valuable keepsake from their grgrandfather-step.

Sharon

[Kent]

Sharon:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

Here is some additional information to add to what the others have posted:

The American Waltham Watch Co. (Waltham, MA) had its origins in the 1850's. It was the first successful company in America to manufacture watches in mass production using machinery to make identical (or at least, near identical) parts. Over the next hundred years or so of its existence, its output of jeweled watches (over 34 million) was only exceeded by one other company, the National Watch Co. at Elgin, IL. Commonly referred to as "Waltham," the company made a full line of watches ranging from modest, affordable watches to some of the finest watches made in this country. An 1884 article on the American Watch Co. (http://members.aol.com/gfrauen10/walthampage.html) is available on Greg Frauenhoff's website.

You can find out some basic facts about your Waltham watch (which you've already done) by entering the serial number on the movement (the "works") in the field on the Serial Number link accessable from the NAWCC Information Storage (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/walsernum.htm) website. Don't use any commas in entering the serial number.

There is also a Glossary (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/Glossary.htm) of the terms provided by the serial number lookup.

Or, a similar search may be done at the Swiss - Waltham Website (http://www.waltham.ch/cgi/waltham/search.asp). This website also has a short history of the American Waltham Watch Co. and other interesting information. But, as Tom McIntyre Pointed Out[/colour] (http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=3;gtid=301789;gpid=30 2090#gpid302090), it is based upon an earlier version of the data base available at the NAWCC Information Storage website.

Should the date not be listed in the search of the NAWCC Information Storage - Waltham Serial Number Data Base, Oldwatch.com's Waltham Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/walthamdate.html), or the PocketWatchSite's Waltham Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/walthamserials.html) are a means for determining the approximate production date. In general, we think of serial number vs. date lists - created by using the average number of watches produced over a period of years - to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more. This is not just for Waltham, but for other watch manufacturers as well.

You found:

model #1908
The model of a movement is the overall design of the movement. Although there may be some variations of specific models from some manufacturers, the model defines the layout of the (gear) train which usually determines the size and shape of the plates and/or bridges. The model design also includes the design of the vast majority of the parts. Some models were of less-than-great design for one reason or another, and they were only in production for a few years. Other models were the result of very successful designs and may have continued in production for more than twenty or thirty years. Waltham's model 1883 is one of those. It hit the market in 1883 and was still in production at least as late as 1917.

material U
The Material: field in the report is the grade of material used:
U - Used in watches that were not adjusted.
A - Used in watches that were adjusted for temperature (Heat & Cold).
P - Used in watches that were adjusted to position (which necessitates adjustment to temperature).

Unadjusted
Unadjusted movements are those for which no effort has been made to adjust the watch to temperature or position. Or, no provision has been made to allow for these adjustments. Whatever variation in the timekeeping rate results from a change in temperature, or the position in which the watch is carried, exists as a result of the way that the particular watch was built. This has to be accepted as the best that watch the can do. Fortunately, just about all of the mass-produced, jeweled, American, unadjusted watches could keep time within a few minutes a day.

size 16
Like many of our other systems of measurement, American pocket watch movement and case sizes can be traced back to an English system, one known as the Lancashire gage. In this system, the size is based upon the diameter of the watch plate to which the dial is fastened, known as the pillar plate. 0-size has a pillar plate diameter of 1-5/30" (yeah, right!). Nominal sizes then increment by 1/30" for each count. Although there are exceptions, most American pocket watches, and Swiss pocket watches made for the North American market, are sized to even numbers with the most common being 0, 6, 12, 16 and 18. These account for the vast majority of American-made watches. A 6-size watch has a pillar plate diameter of 1-5/30" plus 6/30", or 1-11/30". The diameter of a 16-size movement's pillar plate is 1-21/30", and an 18-size watch is one whose pillar plate diameter is 1-23/30" ( 1-5/30" plus 16/30" and 18/30" respectively). For sizes below 0-size (written x/0), the 1/30” is subtracted from the 1-5/30. Thus a 6/0-size watch has a pillar plate diameter of 29/30”. This is right up there with 12 inches to a foot, 16 ounces to a pound and 32 ounces to a quart. The same people have brought us the term hundredweight, which isn’t a hundred of anything but it is equal to 8 stone. Since a stone is equal to 14 pounds, a hundredweight is equal to 112 pounds.

plate 3/4
There are different designs of movements. The 1916 Hamilton Time Book has a variety of designs to look at: www.elginwatches.org/scans/sales_catalogs/1916_hamilton_time_book/m_index.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Page 06 shows the Full Plate model, Grade No. 940. The full top plate design has a plate that completely covers the gear train (watch people drop the word "gear" and just call it the train). There is a separate partial plate, or bridge, that provides access to the mainspring barrel (the cylindrical tub that holds the mainspring) This is referred to as the barrel bridge. The balance resides above the top plate.

Page 08 shows a Bridge model, Grade No. 950. In this design, there isn't a top plate, but only portions of a top plate, which are referred to as bridges, that hold the upper pivots of the train. In this design, the balance wheel is tucked in with the train, between that pillar plate (the bottom plate) and the bridges. The bridge model also has a barrel bridge.

Page 05 shows a 3/4-Plate model, Grade No. 992. Its called this because the train bridge and the barrel bridge cover three-quarters of the train. In this design too, the balance wheel is tucked in with the train, between that pillar plate (the bottom plate) and the train and barrel bridges.

In all three designs, the upper pivot of the balance wheel is held by a bridge called the balance cock.


style OF
OF means it is an open-face movement. An open-face movement has its winding stem at the 12 o'clock position. It's made this way to facilitate the proper means of withdrawing the watch from a pocket to see the time. If you were to hold your hand flat, with the thumb pointing upward and slide it under the chain, where the chain enters your pocket, you can grasp the chain between your thumb and the base of your first finger. Upon withdrawing the watch and rotating your palm upward, the watch will end up lying across your fingers in the correct position to read the time.

comment 99
Note: When a number appears by itself in the Comment Column, it is the page in the factory serial list where the entry and explaination appeared. i.e. "Comment 42" is on page 42 of “Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements,” Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954, (commonly referred to as "The Gray Book"). Unfortunately, I don't have my copy handy at the moment. Perhaps somebody else will look this up for you. If not, I'll try to get to it tonight.

Grade 610
The grade of a movement is the identification of the level of quality to which it is finished. Watch movement grades reflect the amount labor that went into them. There is some relationship to the cost of materials, but the greater cost was the labor to finish and adjust the parts to the precision necessary for good timekeeping and, to a lesser extent, the pleasing appearance of the movement. For cases, the value of the material was a much greater proportion, with some extra labor going into engraved designs.

Thus, a number of different quality grades can be created within a single model design. One way to do so is to add jewels. Starting with seven jewels, generally the least number used in what is considered to be a jeweled watch, jewels are added up to twenty-three, and sometimes more. The jewels provide long-wearing, low-friction surfaces for the pivots and adding jewels, up to nineteen, demonstrably improves timekeeping. The actual timekeeping improvement in going from nineteen to twenty-one jewels is debatable and improvement from additional jeweling beyond that is almost purely theoretical. The jewels themselves have little value, being industrial jewels, not at all gem quality. The real cost of adding jewels is in the labor required to shape and drill them, and to mount them in the plates and other parts of the watch. Higher grade movements can also be built on the same model by adding to the level of adjustment. The more finely a movement is adjusted, the more labor is required. Finer adjustment can be to more positions, or to a tighter rate tolerance. A micrometer regulator (sometimes referred to as a "Patent Regulator"), necessary for providing a precise means for which to set the overall rate, is another expense that goes into higher grade watches. Additional labor is also required to improve the aesthetic appearance of higher grade watches. People who pay for more expensive watches expect them to look better than cheaper watches. This was done by using nickel, or nickel plated, plates in lieu of gilded plates; by damaskeening the plates, or using more extensive damaskeening; by using gilded screws, regulators, and other minor parts; and by furnishing a double-sunk dial in lieu of a single-sunk dial. All of these means of creating a higher grade can be built upon the same model which was used to make the least costly jeweled watch. Thus, a 21-jewel railroad grade movement (adjusted to temperature and 5 or 6 positions) typically cost twice as much as a 17-jewel movement of the same model that was only adjusted to temperature.

jewels 7
See above.

Bal Brequet Spring.
There are different designs of hairspring (the spring coiled inside of the balance wheel). A Brequet hairspring has exit from the outer coil bent upwards to pass over the other coils. This is a better type of spring than earlier designs.

Catalog Information for for your grade No. 610 Waltham movement, along with a picture, and where your watch fit in Waltham's line of 16-size watches can be seen online on page W4 of the:

1917 Oskamp-Nolting Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

Note: The grade of a case is the quality of the materials and work that went into it. Each case grade was offered in many different engraved designs.

A short history of American watch cases, within the online article "[color=blue]Decorative Aspects of American Horology[/colour]," by Philip Poniz, can be viewed on The Antiquorum Magazine (http://www.antiquorum.com/vox/june_2002/poniz/poniz.htm) website.

The Illinois Watch Case Co., of Elgin, Illinois, (formerly the Elgin Giant Watch Case Co.) carefully named their cases "Elgin" to give the impression that the watch case company was associated with the well-known Elgin National Watch Co. This 1895 Elgin Watch Case Ad (http://photos11.flickr.com/16931454_70ba7c9b7c_o.jpg) serves as an example. There was no association and the watch company eventually brought suit against the case company to prevent them from using the "Elgin" name. This was Decided in the Favor of the Watch Company in the Lower Courts in 1898 (http://static.flickr.com/10/13721240_d201f5dccd_o.jpg), but it was overturned in the Supreme Court. The citation for that case is Elgin Nat. Watch Co. v. Illinois Watch Case Co., 179 U.S. 665 (1901), as reported by John F. in a post on July 11, 2002. There may also be some confusion as to whether there was an association between the Illinois Watch Case Co. and the Illinois Watch Co. There wasn't. Despite the questionable use of the name "Elgin," the Illinois Watch Case Co. was a reputable company and it continued to make cases at least as late as the 1940's. Some of its later cases are labeled "Elgin Giant Watch Case Co."

The “Spartan” grade of case is a base metal, chrome-plated case, introduced in the very late 1920s or in the 1930s. It may not be the original case for your watch.

If you have any other questions, please ask.

Good luck,

[ogalirish]

Kent,

I can now see why people collect watches. This can become a fascinating hobby.

Your information was extremely informative and interesting. I went over to Elgin and found the back cover of my watch. One odd thing but I'm betting it was in the processing of the picture. My watch back is The Crescent but, the picture is reversed.

I'm hoping your response can be printed. If so I'll add the information to the watch to let my family know the research has been done.

Thank you so much for taking the time giving me the information.

Sharon

[Kent]

Sharon:

No, the picture of the grade No. 610 movement on page W4 of the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting Jewelry Catalog wasn't reversed. It is showing the hunting-case version of the movement. Your movement is the open-face version which has the large and small winding wheels in the opposite locations.

A hunting-case movement is one that is designed to fit into a case that has a protective cover over the crystal (glass). The cover is released by pressing down on the crown (the correct name for the winding knob). The movement is designed such that the winding stem is at the 3 o'clock position and that the seconds dial is at the 6 o'clock position. It's made this way to facilitate the proper means of holding the hunting-case (HC) watch when opening it.

An open-face movement has the winding stem is at the 12 o'clock position, which causes a change of position of the parts of the movement, seen from the back as a reversal of the position of the winding wheels.

You should be able to print out all of the material witten in the posts and linked to, although you may have to resort to copying and pasting it. Please let me know if you have a problem and I'll try to help by sending printable versions to you. Having gathered and printed out information about a family watch, it is a wise idea to write out as much as you know about the family member to whom the watch originally belonged. Then, add the names and relationships of the family members who passed it down to the current holder. Make up a booklet with this and all of the watch information and try to keep it with the watch. This way, the watch has real family heritage instead of it just being an old family watch, the identity and relationship of the original owner having been lost in the distant past.

Good luck,

[Kent]

Oh, I've checked on comment 99. It is only the page number in the "Gray Book" upon which the serial number of your watch movement is detailed. There are no notes pertaining to your watch movement and no other data that isn't listed in the website you first visited.