Why is the Hamilton 950B sought after by collectors more than other 23 jewel wat

[lak611]

I do not want to get into any discussion regarding appraisal or specifics regarding price of particular watches. I do have a question, though. I have noticed that collectors tend to pay much higher prices for the Hamilton 950B than for other 23 jewel watches that were manufactured during the same time period, such as the Waltham Vanguard. What is it about the Hamilton that is so attractive to collectors? Is it rarer? Is there something else about the quality of it, e.g., more durable, better timekeeper, etc? I do own a Hamilton 950B and a Waltham Vanguard model 1623. It seems like a lot more collectors want the Hamilton 950B. Is there a special reason?

[Don Dahlberg]

In the B series (992B and 950B) Hamilton had the best hairspring and balance ever made for a pocket watch up to this time and perhaps today.

George Daniels used Hamilton Elivar Extra hairsprings in his hand made pocket watches. He tried other brands and he tried to make is own. Nothing met the standards that the Hamilton hairspring did.

The hairsprings in the 950B was better than the ones used in the 992B. It is more highly jeweled and finished to a higher level.

As a timekeeper, the 950B was the best mass produced railroad pocket watch ever made.

Don

[terry hall]

I think Don nailed it mostly...

In the time frame Hamilton I believe had the highest perceived quality among the watchmakers.

i do not know the production #'s for the Vanguard 1623, but 950B is 'just short' of 29k movements (my approximation)....

and there is always the ''apparent mystique'' of the Railway Special...:wink:

[lak611]

Thanks, Don and Terry. That helps a lot.

I know there were several types of dials/hands on the 950B. Mine has the dial that looks like tracks around the edge, with the gunmetal grey baton hands. Was that the most popular dial/hand style? If not, what was?

[John Cote]

Laura,

While I would probably agree that the Hamilton 950B was one of the best 23 jewel mass produced watches ever made, I am not sure I agree that collectors will pay more for a 950b than any other 23j 16s RR watch. The 23 jewel. Elinvar Bunn Specials by Hamilton bring a lot more money these days. I guess these watches were a little earlier than the 950Bs. but for me they are in the same era.

JohnC

[lak611]

John, I thought that by the 1950s, Hamilton killed the Illinois brand.

[Robert Sweet]

According to research, the last of the Bunn Special's were sold abt. 1948.

According to Roy Ehrhardt's Hamilton book a lot of 809, 161A Bunn Special's fitted with 992B balance and hairsprings and standard Bunn Special balance staff were sold beginning in 1947.

Some of these Bunn Specials were sold in Hamilton cases, such as the model 3 and 12.

Robert

[terry hall]

John,
I had considered just what you said when replying, but decided to limit to the comparision of the 1623- 950B as they were later than the Bunn Specials and the manufacturing "heyday" had (to me) passed...

I fully agree that MOST of the 163 numbered grade Bunn Specials will realize MUCH higher $$ than a typical 950B and will certainly out pace a 1623 by a LONG shot....

Laura,

I believe that dial you describe the 535 is the most popular, being produced in both glass enamel (porcelain) and melamine....

though later examples were seen with the 379 'montgomery' dial with marking that included "23 Jewels" and without the marking.

[Robert Sweet]

IMHO, the low production number and variants of the 163 and 163A is really the reason for their higher prices and not necessarily the quality.

Robert

[Robert Sweet]

The 950B was also available with the 151 dial, but is seldom seen.

Robert

[lak611]

The 950B was also available with the 151 dial, but is seldom seen.

Robert

Was the 950B with the 151 dial only available in the 14K case? If so, that would explain the scarcity of them.

[terry hall]

Lara,

Don't take the advertising cut as 'gospel'... or the combination pictured is the 'only way' it came...

Hamilton advertised in some instances "choice of dial" and it did not make a difference of movement or case choice

The 151 dial was available in both the 992b and 950b...

the more 'uncommon' dial is the 151 with marking of Hamilton Railway Special

The 14k case is scarcer.....

[lak611]

Had the marginal minute dials fallen out of favor by the 1950s?

[terry hall]

I would say no... Hamilton still offered the 379 dial until virtually 'the end'...

the 151 dial was just not a 'looker' to me anyway....

[Robert Sweet]

Here is 950B, 151 dial.

Thanks goes out to Charlie Sides.

Robert

[terry hall]

THAT is a Scarce dial... :clap:

[lak611]

Wow! Congratulations, Charlie, for finding that one!

[Robert Sweet]

Yes, it may be as scarce as the 161B. :thumb:

Robert

[lak611]

Are there any pictures of the 161B available?

[John Cote]

Are there any pictures of the 161B available?


Laura,

My watch photo skills were not quite up to snuff when I took this picture but...your wish is my command...

http://www.interstatetime.com/Broke/images/161-BMvt.jpg

JohnCote

[John Cote]

Another version of the same picture. Perhaps a bit clearer:

http://www.interstatetime.com/Posts/Pix/161bMvt.jpg

[Tom McIntyre]

Are all the Elinvar Extra hairsprings dyed blue?

[Fred Hansen]

Most of the Illinois Bunn Special Elinvar watches had dyed blue hairsprings.

The exceptions I've seen are one or two of the 161B that I've seen that had white hairsprings (even though other 161B's like John posted had blue), and the other exception I've seen is that some of the late 161A that were cased in Hamilton factory cases have white hairsprings. Here is a link to a thread with photos of one of these Hamilton cased 161A with a white colored Elinvar hairspring ...

http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=3;gtid=304874

Fred

[Robert Sweet]

Are all the Elinvar Extra hairsprings dyed blue?


Tom,
All of the "Elinvar-Extra" hairsprings are "White" as their natural finish as noted in the excerpt shown below.

Robert

[Tom McIntyre]

Hi Robert,

I knew the natural finish was white. I was surprised that such a late watch as the 161B, which must have an Elinvar Extra hairspring, would have the spring dyed blue.

Waltham did it both ways also. The Conel spring could be order either white or dyed. Presumably some watchmakers preferred the appearance ot the blue hairspring matching the blue screws. Possibly the white hairspring was used when the screws were polished white.

typo

[lak611]

John, thanks for the pictures of the 161B.

Robert, thanks for explaining the colour of the Elinvar hairsprings.

[Dr. Jon]

Is there any difference between the elinvar spring in a 992E and a 992B? I prefer the E to the B models. I like gold set jewels.

[Don Dahlberg]

Dr. Jon,

Yes, there is a big difference between the Swiss Elinvar hairspring in the 992E and the Hamilton Elinvar Extra hairspring in the 992B. The Swiss Elinvar was very soft. It was easily distorted. It even sagged under gravity, causing positional errors. Hamilton was not happy with the Swiss Elinvar and they were worried that the war in Europe would cut off their supply. They worked about five years to improve Elinvar. They made slight variations in the composition and major changes on the heat treatment process, which was very complicated. The results was Elinvar extra, which had the rigidity of the old steel mainsprings and better iso-elasticity and more antimagetic than the Swiss Elinvar.

The compsition of Elinvar Extra is:
Iron 47.13-47.31%
Nickel 42.94-43.07%
Chromium 4.95%-4.99%
Silicon 0.48-0.53%
Carbon 0.41-0.46%
Manganes 0.61-0.63%
Titanium 2.66-2.84%
Aluminum 0.40-0.48%
Cobalt 0.28-0.30%

The process of making Elinvar was so complicated, each batch turned out slightly different. Some batches had to be scrapped. Others went into class B hairsprings for the 992B and some into class A hairsprings for the 950B. Class A hairsprings had no more variation than 0.04 sec/ day- degree F when used in conjunction with 12% nickel silver blance wheel.

Don

[Kent]

The spring in the 992E is Elinvar. The spring in the 992B is Elinvar Extra, a superior material for a hairspring.

I see that Don did a much better job of it while I was typing and fixing an error.

[Tom McIntyre]

Our old friend Pat Caruso had the job at Waltham of testing the Conel batches as they came out of the heat treat process. I think I recall him telling me the yield was never much better than 80%. Pat actual took the billets and had the shop make hairsprings for him and then he put them in watches and tested them. They tested them on a dilatometer also, but the final tests were in watches.

[Robert Sweet]

Hi Robert,

I knew the natural finish was white.


Sorry Tom, I must have misread your question. :thumb:

Robert