What were all the companies that made watches for Ball?

[lak611]

I own two Elgin-Ball 333 watches. I am also familiar with the Hamilton-Ball and Waltham-Ball watches. I was searching the websites of several stores that sell pocket watches (not ebay or other auctions, actual businesses) and noticed Illinois-Ball.

Does anyone have a list of all the companies that made watches for Ball? Were the watches made by these other companies besides Hamilton, Waltham and Elgin railroad standard grade? I would appreciate more information about Ball watches made by companies other than Hamilton, Waltham and Elgin. Thanks a lot. :)

[Tom Huber]

Laura, There was Hampden, E. Howard & Co, and one Keystone Howard known to exist. Late in the life of the Ball Company, they had RR grade watches made by the Record Watch Co of Switzerland.

Tom

[lak611]

Thanks, Tom. Since Ball was located in Cleveland, in business until 1969, and I live in Cleveland, what would be the best way for me to get in touch with people who might have worked for Ball or have firsthand knowledge of the company?

[Kent]

Laura:

Your best bet is probably to contact the folks at NAWCC Lake Erie Chapter 28 Cleveland, Ohio (http://www.nawcc28.org/).

Ball watches were also made by Seth Thomas and V&C.

Good luck,

[Jon Hanson]

Laura:

Your best bet is probably to contact the folks at NAWCC Lake Erie Chapter 28 Cleveland, Ohio (http://www.nawcc28.org/).

Ball watches were also made by Seth Thomas and V&C.

Good luck,

Also, Aurora.

[rrstd]

Hamilton, Waltham, Elgin, Hampden, Aurora, Seth Thomas, Howard, Illinois and V&C are the companies I can come up with who made watches for Ball.

A number of these watches were made prior to Ball's use of ORRS designation.

[Harold Visser]

Laura, E. Howard & Co. made 200 open face and 22 hunter case Web C. Ball models over a 3 year stretch of time. The first ones were finished in April, 1893 and the last ones finished July 1896, the 22 hunters were almost evenly engraved either BofLE or O of RC. and the 200 open face were engraved B of Le about 3 times as often as O of RC.
Harold

[lak611]

Laura, E. Howard & Co. made 200 open face and 22 hunter case Web C. Ball models over a 3 year stretch of time. The first ones were finished in April, 1893 and the last ones finished July 1896, the 22 hunters were almost evenly engraved either BofLE or O of RC. and the 200 open face were engraved B of Le about 3 times as often as O of RC.
HaroldWow! The Howard-Ball watches must be extremely rare.

[lak611]

Hamilton, Waltham, Elgin, Hampden, Aurora, Seth Thomas, Howard, Illinois and V&C are the companies I can come up with who made watches for Ball.

A number of these watches were made prior to Ball's use of ORRS designation.


Did Ball have any special designation that he used prior to the ORRS designation? Was he just selling to the general public, rather than railroad men prior to the ORRS designation?

[lak611]

I am not familiar with V&C. Who were they, and what were the most popular watches that they sold?

[lak611]

Laura:

Your best bet is probably to contact the folks at NAWCC Lake Erie Chapter 28 Cleveland, Ohio (http://www.nawcc28.org/).

Ball watches were also made by Seth Thomas and V&C.

Good luck,Thanks, Kent. I will contact Lake Erie Chapter 28.

[rrstd]

Laura,

My spelling may be incorrect - but V&C stands for Vacheron and Constantine.

Prior to the ORRS marked watches, ball used a variety of other markings. Some of the early Hampden and Hamilton's were marked "Ball's Standard, Superior Grade", while other Hampdens, Aurora's, etc... had simple Webb C. Ball markings. I have only seen pictures of the Seth Thomas - Ball, but it is marked something like "Railway Queen".

[cea]

My mom recently gave me an old pocket watch to sell for her at a gold party. The "gold people" told me the case was 14k and the side trim was 10k and they would give me about $150 for it but they would just be buying the gold the watch inners would be thrown out .. I thought since it was a real gold watch I should look into the history of it more so I didn't sell it .. its pretty worn, not sure who's it was .. serial # is 159267 so I have the info on it .. can you tell me anything you know about these? is there a market for these old watches? I live in Michigan and would like to TAKE it to someone rather than ebay or mail it ..

[Jeff Hess]

Do not forget Longines and Robert Cort and several others.

Jeff Hess

(V&C is VAcheron & Constantin)

[BILL KAPP]

cea,

You need to start a new thread, and give us more info as to movement markings, dial markings, and a picture of both if possible.

thx
Bill Kapp

[Jeff Hess]

Thanks, Tom. Since Ball was located in Cleveland, in business until 1969, and I live in Cleveland, what would be the best way for me to get in touch with people who might have worked for Ball or have firsthand knowledge of the company?
------------------

Actually only the store was in Cleveland. The watch factory (and it WAS a factory) was in Chicago from the teens forward until the 1980's)


Jeff Hess
President
Ball Watch USA

[mdloggins]

V&C is probably Vacheron & Constantin. A little Swiss number.

[lak611]

Thanks, Tom. Since Ball was located in Cleveland, in business until 1969, and I live in Cleveland, what would be the best way for me to get in touch with people who might have worked for Ball or have firsthand knowledge of the company?
------------------

Actually only the store was in Cleveland. The watch factory (and it WAS a factory) was in Chicago from the teens forward until the 1980's)


Jeff Hess
President
Ball Watch USAThank you, Jeff. I checked more online and found that you did a presentation in Cleveland in October 2006 for the NAWCC. I will contact somebody from the Lake Erie Chapter 28 to find out if any notes or videos are available.

I was not aware that Ball had a watch factory. I was under the impression that they sold watches but did not manufacture any.

[Submarine Chief]

Laura,

Vacheron and Constantine. I hope you are as lucky finding one of thes as you were the first Elgin 333.

Don
Submarine Chief

[lak611]

Laura,

Vacheron and Constantine. I hope you are as lucky finding one of thes as you were the first Elgin 333.

Don
Submarine Chief
Thanks, Don. I really do not have an interest in Swiss watches at this point in time. I am interested in finding some of the other American watches made for Ball other than Elgin, Hamilton and Waltham. It sounds like a lot of them are really rare, so I will probably be looking for a long time.

[Jeff Hess]

I was not aware they had a factory.

--------------------

Laura,

This is a common misconception and open to discussion and symantics. OTher watch companies have gone on record as acknowledging that BAll was a "manufacturer" of watches.

And pictures of the Ball "Factory" or "assembley plant" are available.

many on this board will tell you that BAll simply ordered watches from Watch Companies.

,And they did indeed do this after they got kind of tired of the hassle and started ordering them directly from Hamilton. This I learned from our friend Don at the Museum when he unearthed letters between Ball and Hamilton.

I suppose the debate will go on. And many have amindset that cannot be changed! Such is the passion that abounds in watch collecting and related research!

Jeff Hess

[lak611]

What were the models that Ball manufactured directly? Did they get the parts from other watch companies and assemble the final product, or did they make their own parts?

[BILL KAPP]

Laura,

Horology is a fascinating field to study! Some might call it semantics but to put it in perspective you have to think about the fact that the term watchmaker is applied to persons that some would label a watch repairman.

In some of the older ads, Ball referred to himself as a manufacturer and in others he referred to himself as a retailer.

There is little doubt that he ordered parts made to his specifications, took movements down, reassembled them and adjusted them.

I know of no instance in which he actualy manufactured any components.

Many people today have switched enough parts from one ball watch to another ball watch, that one could consider them manufacturers.

Happy hunting,

Bill Kapp


misnomer

[lak611]

Bill, I understand what you are saying. That's what I thought. I guess you could say that the watchmaker nowadays who makes his own parts when he repairs watches is a "manufacturer."

[Kent]

According to page 555 of the “Complete Price Guide to Watches, No 24,” C. Shugart, T. Engle and R. Gilbert, Cooksey Shugart Publications, Cleveland, TN, 2004 (a new edition comes out each year in February. This book is available at libraries, most major bookstores and online at the NAWCC Gift Shop (http://www.nawcc.org/giftshop/americart/bk_watch.htm) - edition No. 27 may be pictured, but ask about edition No. 28), the Swiss watchmaking firm of Constantin and that of Vacheron were in business in 1785. The two became associated as Vacheron & Constantin (V. & C.) in 1819.

In the mid-1880s, and into the early 1890s, Chas. Leo Abry, 63 Nassau St., New York, NY was the sole agent for V. & C. in the U.S. and Canada. Ads of that era, such as a May 1887 Ad (http://photos22.flickr.com/29401292_bb26e20e38_o.jpg) offered V. & C. movements to fit American size cases and noted that private labeling was available "... without Extra Charge." By the mid-1890s, the firm of Edmond E. Robert (http://photos23.flickr.com/29401293_71bfe50234_o.jpg), 3 Maiden Lane, New York, NY, had become V. & C.'s agent, an arrangement that lasted at least as late as 1910, if not much longer. The ads now show that the watches are "... adjusted to Heat, Cold, and Positions."

In 1908, V. & C. promoted movements for railroad time service in ads such as were published in the trade press on June 10, 1908 (http://photos21.flickr.com/29401294_1872909a38_o.jpg) and September 23, 1908 (http://photos21.flickr.com/29401295_f6df14362e_b.jpg). These movements met the usual requirements, being lever-set and adjusted to at least five positions (expressed on the movements as "Eight 8 Adjustments" - a term generally used to indicate adjustment to heat, cold, isochronism and five positions). That marking began to appear around the 1906-1908 period. That is when railroad time service rules started requiring more than the simple word "Adjusted," which had previously been used regardless of the level of adjustment. The marking "Eight 8 Adjustments" also appears on Longines railroad grade watches that seem to have been made in the `teens.

The practice of marking the total number of adjustments (as opposed to the number of position adjustments) wasn't used by the American watch companies until the 1940s when Waltham marked their No. 1623 Vanguard grade "8 Adjustments." Slightly later, Elgin applied the term to their No. 571 B.W. Raymond grade. After a few years, to clear up confusion as to whether it meant adjustment to heat, cold, isochronism and five positions; or temperature, isochronism and six positions; Elgin changed its marking to "9 Adjustments."

The V. & C. watches were accepted on those U.S. railroads which didn't require American-made watches. The Canadians, not having a domestic watch industry to protect, accepted Swiss watches as readily as it did American watches. To compete in the North American market, V. & C.'s watches were fitted with a lower center jewel (a jewel having only a debatable function and not generally provided on European-made watches), making the watches 17, 19 or 21-jewel (http://photos23.flickr.com/29401291_944e741dbb_o.jpg), in lieu of the 16, 18 and 20-jewel watches marketed in Europe and elsewhere.

[lak611]

Kent, thank you for the wonderful details about V. & C. I will check the gift shop for the book, since I do not own a copy at the present time.

[Fred Hansen]

The main makers have definitely been covered here as well as most the smaller parts of the Ball story, but I think there are just a few minor ones left not covered yet ...

- At least one watch for Ball was made by Keystone-Howard and a photo was shown in this recent thread by Jeff Hess, and I have heard this one described by collectors that had seen it as likely a prototype or model ... http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=3;gtid=303690

- At least one watch for Ball made by the Rockford Watch Co. also was likely made, and here is a thread also by Jeff Hess showing the evidence ... http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=3;gtid=9636

- The New York Watch Company made a private-label marked watch that I believe was signed "Whitcomb & Ball, Cleveland OH". This is an early piece that significantly predates the ORRS type watches.

Fred

[lak611]

When were the Keystone-Howard and Rockford prototype watches made for Ball? Do you have any idea of the approximate dates that they were manufactured?

[Kent]

In considering the watches made for Ball, one has to separate those contracted for by one of the Ball watch companies (for either railroad or other use) from those private labeled for the Cleveland store. Thus, there were Ball-signed watches available in the store that were not available through Ball watch company distribution.

By the way, the V&C watches were marked "Ball's Standard"