Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

[Fred Hansen]

Early on Hamilton made some 17 jewel 18 size watches for Ball that were marked "Adjusted" and were also marked with a large capital letter "A" on the barrel bridge.

I'd like to start a thread here studying these "Adjusted A" watches a little closer and looking at a few features.

Here are pics of an example at serial #90460 ...

[Fred Hansen]

Pics of another example at serial #90217, posted here with permission from Jones-Horan auction ...

http://www.jones-horan.com/0604/images/mwb244_c.jpg

http://www.jones-horan.com/0604/images/mwb244_a.jpg

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Both watches above have some similar features ...

- Double-sunk dial
- Movement and dial marked "Ball & Co."
- Circular damaskeen but with wide spacing ... most circular damaskeened 18 size Hamilton-Ball have about 9 circular lines, but these each only have 3 circular lines. The damaskeen also has a little bit of floral decoration around the center jewel

But these two watches do also have one notable difference ... #90217 is marked "Sapphire Pallets" but #90460 is not.

From what I remember, most examples I've seen have been marked "Sapphire Pallets". An interesting thing about this marking on examples I've seen is that it is in a different font than the other movement marks, and the marking is not inlet with black coloring. The first time I saw one of these it looked a bit odd, but after I'd seen a few identical I no longer doubted it.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

I'd be interested in any info on examples of these "Adjusted A" Hamilton-Ball watches and am especially interested in whether or not examples are marked "Sapphire Pallets" and also if the watch has any other features different than the two examples posted here.

I'll look in my notes for any others and will start a database here in this post and will update this post as more info comes in. Thanks in advance to anyone that can contribute data and I'm looking forward to trying to figure this puzzle out!

90216 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
90217 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
90258 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
90358 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
90460 - Adjusted A, not marked "Sapphire Pallets"
90539 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"

Fred

[BILL KAPP]

Fred,

I didn't pay enough attention to all the details when I put these in my data base.

Here are the numbers that I know something about between 90201 and 90720.

90201 999 Ball & CO ORRS SR
90216 999 ORRS "A"
90217 999 ORRS "A" DS
90232 999 Ball & Co ORRS SR
90242 999 Ball & CO ORRS
90346 999 Ball & CO ORRS
90458 999 ORRS "A"
90460 999 ORRS "A" DS
90490 999 Ball & Co ORRS "A"
90528 999 Ball & Co ORRS
90537 999 Ball & Co ORRS "A"
90538 999 Ball & Co ORRS "A"
90539 999 Ball & Co ORRS "A"
90546 999 Ball & CO ORRS SR DS
90557 999 Ball & CO ORRS SR
90576 999 Ball & CO ORRS SR DS
90624 999 Ball & CO B of LE SR DS
90710 999 Ball & Co ORRS SR
90720 999 ORRS "A"

Happy hunting,

Bill Kapp

add DS info

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Bill ... much appreciated and your observations match mostly with what I've seen but I do notice some differences from what I'd expected.

The "Adjusted A" movements I'd seen and jotted down serial numbers on had all been between the low 90200's to the low-mid 90500's serial numbers. I don't think I'd seen any other movement types mixed in this range. But your list shows 90232 as a "Single Roller" and then has 90242, 90346, and 90528 as ORRS with no note of extra markings. If possible I'd definitely be interested in any photos of any of these.

I did have serial number 90720 in my notes but as marked "Single Roller" rather than "A". So our notes don't match for this one. Unfortunately though I didn't make any note of when or where I saw this watch. If anyone can check and confirm the markings of 90720 I'd appreciate it.

Fred

p.s. For right now I think I'll keep the list in the 4th post of this thread separate for movements where the presence/absence of the "Sapphire Pallets" marking is known ... but any info in this thread on these Adjusted A movements is welcome and appreciated.

[Fred Hansen]

Serial #90216 is marked "Sapphire Pallets" and is pictured in Roy Ehrhardt's 1979 Price Indicator.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Serial #90358 is an "Adjusted A" and is marked "Sapphire Pallets".

Fred

[BILL KAPP]

Fred,

I have no pics of any of these. One of the observations (90460) was a month or so ago on ebay but most of them came early on and if not from the price guides or similar sources, they came from that thread Ball & Co vs Railroad watch Co

http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=3;gtid=98784

At the time I was more focused on the runs up to 42k that had Pl's , brotherhoods and Ball marked movements and dials.

Glad you are taking the time to clean up and clarify some of this data.

Thanks,

Bill
add 90460

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Bill and I appreciate your posting the data in this and the other threads.

I found a photo of serial #90720 in Roy Ehrhardt's 1980 Price Indicator and it is "Single Roller" marked but not marked with the "A". It also has the more typical narrow circular damaskeen pattern.

The "Single Roller" marked Ball watches are also very interesting and would make a terrific thread of their own ... I'm thinking they could give me a good project to start for next week ... :)

Fred

[Kent]

Ed and I have 90720 listed as single roller, attributed to Greg Frauenhoff in July, 2001. Apparently, he discussed it on the Message Board, judging from the way we have it listed.

[Kent]

Oh yeah, we also have:

90578 SR
90692 SR

[terry hall]

I have

90617
"Adjusted"
"Single Roller"

"Sapphire Pallets"

Double Sunk dial ORRS ball & co patent info at bottom

[pocketwatchdog1]

I have Ser. No. 90258:
marked sapphire pallets
marked Ball & Company
wide pattern
D. S. Ball ORRS dial;
marded Ball & Company
also marked Ball's Standard Dial patent applied for

Cheers!
Joel W. Sarich

[Douglas Romero]

Fred, Thanks for reminding me I still have it. An updated pix of 90217. I wondered about the marking for "Sapphire Pallets" also. Did not know if marking inlet should have been with black coloring. Thanks for pointing that out. (i)

[Kent]

This one was just seen at the at the Mid-South Chattanooga Regional:

90403 18-size, 17-jewel "Single Roller - Official BoLE Standard" with a double-sunk "Official BoLE Standard" (in black) dial.

I've seen a lot of 18-size Hamilton-Ball watches but this is the first time I've seen a double-sunk brotherhood dial. Has anybody else seen another one?

[Fred Hansen]

I've seen a lot of 18-size Hamilton-Ball watches but this is the first time I've seen a double-sunk brotherhood dial. Has anybody else seen another one?

I've seen a few others but not too many.

A similar B of LE watch with the same double-sunk dial was sold on eBay about 1 1/2 years ago.

Another double-sunk B of LE dial was paired to an early B of LF movement and listed in the 2002 Antiquorum auction. I'm not sure if this movement/dial combo have remained intact in the years since.

A loose double-sunk O of RC dial turned up a few years ago. This dial changed hands and was then put onto an earlier O of RC movement.

Fred