Waltham Movement

[snark97]

Hello. I inherited a pocket watch from my grandfather several years ago. It has been sitting in a dome case since then.

It does not wind anymore and you cannot set the hands on it. Also the crystal has fallen off the front of the watch. I took it to a local jeweler in the Baltimore area hoping I can get it repaired. So right now I am waiting to here back from them.



It has a Waltham movement, 5 position, 21 jewels, Ser.# 21043569, Crescent St., Waltham, Mass. The casing backing on the inside has the following information SCEPTER 0613462. I know it was made around 1915 based on the serial number. My grandfather was working for the Canadian National Railroad at that time according to my aunt but she has no idea when he got it.



Can anyone give me anymore information about it?

Thanks.

Stephen

[Norman Bliss]

Hello Stephen, and welcome to the board!

You already have a lot of info about your watch. It's a high quality railroad grade watch, one of the more popular RR watches made by Waltham. It's ten years newer than the Crescent Street that's keeping great time in my pocket right now! The Waltham database is down right now, so I can't check the serial number, but I'll guess from the date that it's a 16 size watch, which should make it a model 1899/1908. You know who owned it originally, and where it was used, which is a lot more than most collectors know about their watches.

Regarding time setting, a railroad watch is lever set, which means you don't set it by pulling out the crown. You have to unscrew the bezel (the metal ring holding the crystal), and you'll see a tab at the edge of the dial at the 1:00 position. CAREFULLY pull that out & up with your fingernail. When fully out, you can set the hands using the crown. Push it back in, and the crown winds the watch. If the watch won't wind, the mainspring may be broken, a simple repair. If the crystal is out, the watch may have been dropped, and there may be more problems. It clearly needs a cleaning in any case.

Be careful who you let clean or repair this watch. Most jewelers don't service watches anymore, but send them out to people who may or may not do proper work. Make sure anyone who cleans your watch disassembles it completely to its component parts. Too many people take it out of the case and take the dial off, then dunk the complete movement in a solution of cleaner and oil. A watch treated like this is neither properly cleaned or lubricated.

Good luck.

By the way, he probably bought the watch from a jeweler who was a time inspector for the railroad. RR watches had to meet certain specifications and be inspected and serviced on a regular basis. Do you know where he lived when he worked for the railroad?

[snark97]

My mother told me they lived in a town called Hornepayne in the Ontario Province. I do not remember what he did. I will have to ask my aunt since my mother has advanced alzheimers and barely communicates anymore.

I have pictures of her standing in the middle of the track from that time when she was three years old. That would have been around 1925.

Do you think I should get it back from the jewelers and have another look at it before letting anyone do anything to it? I am not worried about it running but it would be nice to have it doing so.

Thanks for any help.

[Norman Bliss]

Did you ask for an estimate first? When they give you one, they should explain what they think is wrong, and what they will do to the watch. Ask them if the watch will be taken completely apart for cleaning (the watch should be cleaned, no matter what else needs to be done). If the watch is being serviced in house, talk to the watchmaker. If it's sent out, ask about the watchmaker's credentials and training. Membership in the NAWCC and/or AWCI (American Watchmakers-Clockmakers Institute) is a good sign, but no guarantee of quality. Training from either or both is a better sign.

[Kent]

Hi Stephen:

Welcome to the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board!

The serial number you posted, 21043569, dosen't show up in the references as a Crescent St. grade movement. Would you please confirm the number when you get the watch back? It is the serial number on the movement that is wanted, not the serial number on the case. Assuming that you are relatively close, the watch would have been made around 1918 give or take a few years.

The American Waltham Watch Co. (Waltham, MA) had its origins in the 1850's. It was the first successful company in America to manufacture watches in mass production using machinery to make identical (or at least, near identical) parts. Over the next hundred years or so of its existence, its output of jeweled watches (over 34 million) was only exceeded by one other company, the National Watch Co. at Elgin, IL. Commonly referred to as "Waltham," the company made a full line of watches ranging from modest, affordable watches to some of the finest watches made in this country. An 1884 article on the American Watch Co. (http://members.aol.com/gfrauen10/walthampage.html) is available on Greg Frauenhoff's website.

You can find out some basic facts about your Waltham watch by entering the serial number on the movement (the "works") in the field on the Serial Number link accessable from the NAWCC Information Storage (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/walsernum.htm) website. Don't use any commas in entering the serial number.

There is also a Glossary (http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/Glossary.htm) of the terms provided by the serial number lookup. Note: When a number appears by itself in the Comment Column, it is the page in the factory serial list where the entry and explaination appeared. i.e. "Comment 42" is on page 42 of “Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements,� Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954, (commonly referred to as "The Gray Book"). Or, a similar search may be done at the Swiss - Waltham Website (http://www.waltham.ch/cgi/waltham/search.asp). This website also has a short history of the American Waltham Watch Co. and other interesting information. But, as Tom McIntyre Pointed Out[/colour] (http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=3;gtid=301789;gpid=30 2090#gpid302090), it is based upon an earlier version of the data base available at the NAWCC Information Storage website.

Should the date not be listed in the search of the NAWCC Information Storage - Waltham Serial Number Data Base, Oldwatch.com's Waltham Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/walthamdate.html), or the PocketWatchSite's Waltham Date Table (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/walthamserials.html) are a means for determining the approximate production date. In general, we think of serial number vs. date lists - created by using the average number of watches produced over a period of years - to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more. This is not just for Waltham, but for other watch manufacturers as well.

You can find pictures and catalog descriptions for the Crescent St. grade, and see where it fit into Waltham's line, on pages W2 (18-size) and W6 (16-size) of the 1917 Oskamp-Nolting Catalog at:
www.elginwatches.com/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_index.html

To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Only a small percentage of American watches (or Swiss watches for the North American market) were cased at the factories prior to the mid-1920's (even then, uncased movements were furnished to the trade at least until the 1960's). Most watch companies just made movements (the "works") in industry standard sizes. The case companies made cases in those same sizes. The practice at that time was to go to a jeweler, select the quality of the movement and then pick out the desired style and quality of case. The jeweler would then fit the movement to the case in a matter of moments.

Or, watches were sold by mail-order. Large outfits such as Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward, or T. Eaton (in Canada), would offer the movements in a variety of cases of different design and quality in their catalogs. Smaller mail-order retailers would case the watches, typically in a 20-year gold filled case and offer it only that way, with the buyer not having a choice of cases.

Note: The grade of a case is the quality of the materials and work that went into it. Each case grade was offered in many different engraved designs.

A short history of American watch cases, within the online article "[color=blue]Decorative Aspects of American Horology[/colour]," by Philip Poniz, can be viewed on The Antiquorum Magazine (http://www.antiquorum.com/vox/june_2002/poniz/poniz.htm) website.

Scepter is a trade name of the Star Watch Case Co. for a gold-filled or rolled gold plate case. Information about the Star Watch Case Co. can be found in the book, "History of the American Watch Case," Warren H. Niebling, Whitmore Publishing, Philadelphia, PA, 1971 (available on loan by mail to members from the NAWCC Library & Research Center[/colour] (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm)). Otto A. Starke and Fred Herman founded the company in Elgin, IL in 1897. The company moved to Ludington, MI in 1905, where they eventually employed about 150 people. A 1913 Star ad can be seen at:
elginwatches.org/scans/misc_ads/1913/m_star.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.

Until WWI, only pocket watch cases were made. Afterwards, wristwatch cases were added to the line. The company continued to make watch cases until at least the mid-1970's. Cases were solid gold, gold filled, rolled gold plate, sterling silver and eventually, chrome plated.

Your watch is truly a "Railroad Watch." Many people have come to call any large old pocket watch, especially one with an engraving of a locomotive on the back of the case, a railroad watch. This usage is frequently is incorrect. The term "Railroad Watch" was used by the watch and jewelry trade (and is now used by collectors) to refer those high grade watches that met the requirements of railroad time service rules and standards. The railroad industry, and the railroaders themselves, referred to the watches as "Standard Watches," literally, those watches that met the railroads' time service standards.

Although the person who originally owned a watch may have worked for a railroad, it is not necessarily what could properly be called a "Railroad Watch." The use of a standard watch was only required of a portion of railroad employes (correct spelling, used in many older railroad documents), usually those directly involved in running the trains, or controlling, or affecting, the operation of trains. Other employes carried whatever watches they liked. Typical lists of those required to carry a standard watch appear in an 1892 report of Time Inspection on the Illinois Central Railroad (http://photos13.flickr.com/18116144_9bc4fcef3f_b.jpg) and as Standard Time Rule No. 2 in a 1901 Edition of Canadian Pacific Railway General, Train, and Interlocking Rules (http://photos9.flickr.com/13887167_289ea8006f_o.jpg). A later list of Burlington Route employes required to carry a standard watch is shown in these 1949 CB&Q Rules (http://static.flickr.com/45/174562668_28998da6c1_o.jpg). The Union Pacific RR website has concise explanations of Past and Present Railroad Job Descriptions (http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/history/jobs.shtml)

To learn more about railroad time service, time inspection and railroad standard watches, see �Just What Is A Railroad Watch?� On the Pocket Horology, NAWCC Chapter 174 Website (http://www.pockethorology.org/). However, please keep in mind that information that became available since the above was written indicates that hunting-case watches were not specifically prohibited from railroad time service, at least, not as early as 1906-1908.


When you get it back, please confirm the serial number on the movement and perhaps we'll be able to tell you a bit more about it. Meanwhile, you have a ver nice heirloom.

Good luck,

[snark97]

Kent,

You are correct. Thank You.

I transposed the second and third number.

It should be ser. #20143569.

I did find the number on the Swiss site for Waltham. However, since the database in the States is down, I hope it might have other information not in the Swiss database.

Stephen

[Kent]

Stephen:

That makes a difference!

Your watch is a 16-size, model 1908, which is what should be shown on page W6 of the catalog referenced above.

Here's some more information you might be interested in:

Watches that are carried daily need to be cleaned and oiled at regular intervals. Railroad time service rules varied, but requirements for cleaning on a basis of once every year and a half were typical for railroaders at the turn of the century. By the mid-1920’s this was extended to two year intervals.

The “Sears, Roebuck and Co., Inc. Catalogue No. 104,” Chicago, IL, 1897, reprinted by Chelsea House, Philadelphia, PA, 1968 had this to say on page 371:

“We Guarantee for Five Years All the movements sold by us. This does not refer to the life of the movement, but that we will for five years from date of purchase, correct free of charge any fault which may occur from defective material or workmanship. Any well made movement will run a lifetime if properly cared for.
“Remember That your watch should not run longer than one and one-half years without having the old oil cleaned off and fresh oil supplied. This must be done at the expense of the purchaser.
“The balance wheel of all modern watches makes 18,000 beats or revolutions per hour; 432,000 per day, or 157,788,000 per year. An engine or sewing machine will be oiled several times per day, but we have known people to carry a watch for ten years without having it cleaned or fresh oil applied.
“Usually, a movement thus treated is of no value, being entirely worn out. Take good care of your watch if you wish it to perform its duty properly, for it is a very delicate machine. Our charge for cleaning and oiling is 75 cents. The regular retail price is $1.50.”

Watch cleaning and oiling costs a bit more today than it did a hundred years ago. Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
[color=brown]www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html[/colour]
[color=blue]To view, go to the [/colour][color=brown]Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page[/colour] [color=blue]at[/colour] [color=brown]elginwatches.org[/colour], [color=blue]then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on [/colour]'Go'.

Also, check out Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.pocketwatchsite.com/faq.html) on the Pocket Watch Site.

Also, Ed Ueberall, of The Escapement (http://members.aol.com/stdwatch) has put together some notes on the Use And Care of Your Vintage Watch (http://k_singer.home.comcast.net/use_and_care_of_your_vintage_wat.htm) that may be helpful.

Service Frequency
If the watch is run continually, a cleaning and oiling is needed every 3-5 years. If you're only going to wear your watch occasionally, this ought to be done once at the onset and about every ten years thereafter. If you're not going to carry it (or run it), don't bother getting it serviced. Many of the watches in my collection (that aren't run) haven't been cleaned and oiled in 20 or 30 years or more.

Having gathered and printed out information about a family watch, it is a wise idea to write out as much as you know about the family member to whom the watch originally belonged. Then, add the names and relationships of the family members who passed it down to the current holder. Make up a booklet with this and all of the watch information and try to keep it with the watch. This way, the watch has real family heritage instead of it just being an old family watch, the identity and relationship of the original owner having been lost in the distant past.

Good luck,