How is a pocket watch dial fastend?

[ljrusso]

I have a Waltham (Serial number 153326403 / OF) and I took the movement out because I wanted to see why the dial rattled. Anyway when I took it off I found 3 postioning feet and no screws etc. OK so far so good. I put it back together (fastened the screws, put all the hands on etc.) just like when I took it out but now the bloody dial keeps on falling off. Why?
Louis the rocket scientist.....

[ljrusso]

I have a Waltham (Serial number 153326403 / OF) and I took the movement out because I wanted to see why the dial rattled. Anyway when I took it off I found 3 postioning feet and no screws etc. OK so far so good. I put it back together (fastened the screws, put all the hands on etc.) just like when I took it out but now the bloody dial keeps on falling off. Why?
Louis the rocket scientist.....

[doug sinclair]

Louis,

You indicate in one sentence that there were no dial screws. In the next sentence, you indicate that you put the dial back on and tightened the screws! Did you locate three dial screws to fit into the dial screw holes? Were they the correct Waltham screws? If they were Waltham screws with the correct thread, were they long enough? Swiss screws should NOT be used on American watches. The thread pitch is quite different.

Doug

[ljrusso]

Doug, I meant the screws I took out to remove the movement but this unwanted journey has taken a whole new twist.
The main spring went "peng" about 20 minutes ago. So I pulled out my fine mechanic tools and started working. Well I got the spring "hooked" back in and have everything sorted and ready to go but now I have a new question: How do I get the third and fourth pinions plus the escape wheel pinion to stand up "straight" so I can reattach the barrel bridge and the train bridge?

PS There are no dial screws.

[Jon Hanson]

did you disturb the motion works or the cannon pinion?

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149 (http://nawcc-ch149.com), The Early American Watch Club

[ljrusso]

If you mean if I removed the balance and hairspring then no. It did not seem to be neccessary. I removed the following: Ratchet, Main wheel, Center wheel, third wheel and fourth wheel.
Louis
Wait is the cannopn pinion what holds the main wheel on on the front of the watch? If so then yes.

[Jon Hanson]

hr & min wheel with CP under--check to see if these are set.

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149 (http://nawcc-ch149.com), The Early American Watch Club

[ljrusso]

the cp was not "clicked" in. So I assume that is what you mean by set!
Louis

PS just discovered that the little "ring" that goes around the watch comes off. That makes things a bit easier. Everything looks to have lined up and I have the train bridge back on. Am working on the rest. Is there something I can do to test it before I put this back together?

[This message was edited by ljrusso on January 16, 2004 at 16:00.]

[Jon Hanson]

NOT (caps) "clicked" but the gears need to mesh and work correctly.

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149 (http://nawcc-ch149.com), The Early American Watch Club

[Greg Davis]

Before we move too far afield, the absence of the three screws that essentially pin the dial feet to the plate is why the dial falls off. You need to find and install at least two of those to have a stable dial. Don't try using just one and over-tightening it. If you have no such dial screws, I'm sure one of us (perhaps even me) can harvest some for you from deceased watches.

- Greg

150941
Ch.149 member #77

[ljrusso]

Well that is what happend the CP was not really in right. It kind os "slid" in (istead of "clicked") and then I was able to get the gears to mesh. So your trouble-shooting was correct. Thanks.

[Jon Hanson]

you are very welcome!

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149 (http://nawcc-ch149.com), The Early American Watch Club

[ljrusso]

Jon this is what has me perplexed. Is the dial itself supposed to have threads somewhere? If yes then this one has none. Just feet no holes or anything

[Jon Hanson]

Holed dial feet on Waltham usually are for KW mov'ts.

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149 (http://nawcc-ch149.com), The Early American Watch Club

[ljrusso]

feet, dial pins, peg legs, third leg.....
fun to side:
It only has dial pins. I appreciate your help. The operation was a success and was the first time I took a watch apart!
Thanks!
Louis

[Greg Davis]

Perhaps I should post some photos tonight to clear up this little point of confusion... unless someone beats me to it.

- Greg

P.S. Please, someone beat me to it.

150941
Ch.149 member #77

[Tom McIntyre]

I was going to look up the watch itself, but there are no records for watches around 153 million serial number. What is the actual serial number. :wink:

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP
Tommy the JOAT's Web (http://www.AWCo.org)

[Jon Hanson]

set screws for the feet

pins for the feet

combination of above

snap on dials

screwed on dials (vertically for the feet)

combination of the above and pinned for the feet

and a cripple (false--nothing)

and notched dial foot (Fasoldt)

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149 (http://nawcc-ch149.com), The Early American Watch Club

[Greg Davis]

Okay, some photos to help explain the most commonly encountered dial connections.

Dial Feet (http://users3.ev1.net/~temporal-treasures/DialFeet.jpg)

Dial Pin (http://users3.ev1.net/~temporal-treasures/DialPin.jpg)

Dial Screw (http://users3.ev1.net/~temporal-treasures/DialScrew.jpg)

- Greg

150941
Ch.149 member #77

[ljrusso]

Tom,
serial number is: 153264403
Greg and Jon: Thanks!
Louis

[Jerry Treiman]

Louis, I think that you have doubled the "4" this time in the serial number. If it is 15,326,403 your Waltham is a 16-size grade 620 with 15 jewels. The dial should be held snug by three screws coming in radially from the edge of the pillar plate, much like Greg shows in his third picture. Waltham 16-size dial screws should be easy to obtain if yours are missing.

Jerry Treiman
member, chapters 174 & 185

[ljrusso]

Jerry,
You are correct I doubled the four....
I wish it did have screw but unfortunately it only has dial feet thus it "rattles" and is not held firmly in place. This brings me back to my original question: When only dial feet are present then is the dial help in place by the dial hands?
Regards
Louis

[Harvey Mintz]

Louis -

This question has already been answered, but I think it hasn't been answered all in 1 post, so you may not have made the connection. Let me try.

The dial has 3 feet that go into holes in the dial plate. At 90 degree andgles to the feet, there are 3 small threaded holes for screws. The dial is placed on the plate, and the 3 screws are placed in the threaded holes and tightened. This puts pressure on the dial feet from the side, and prevents the dial from lifting off the dial plate.

Most dial screws have points on them, so they sctually put a small dent in the side of the dial foot, which makes it harder for the dial foot to slip.

Greg's 3rd picture in his respons shows the head of a dial screw. As you can see, it goes into the watch at a 90 degree angle to the dial foot and pinches the foot when tightened.

A couple of warnings -
- don't over tighten the dial foot screws! This can lead to cracks in the dial (the dial foot is attached to the copper disk that the glass-enamel adheres to. If you bend the dial foot with too much pressure from the screw the disk will flex, casuing the glass enamel to crack)

- some people have been known to bend the dial feet so they stay in the holes of the dial plate be friction DON'T DO THIS!!! As noted above this can cause cracks in the dial

I hope I managed to get all this information said in an understandable way. Sometimes you just need to hear it said differently to understand it (it's certainly happened to me).

Harvey J. Mintz

[ljrusso]

Harvey
thank you for the excellent clarificaton. Was very well done and now I know where the problem is. One of my watches has no dial screws and the other only has 2 which is why it rattles and throws the hands off.

So now the question: Anybody want to help me source some dial screws?
Regards
Louis