Gentlemen, need some info on Edwin J. Radley Philadelphia

[A.F.W.]

Someone just showed me a watch with this signature on the dial.
Size 18. Any info on this watchmaker ?
T.I.A.

[LloydB]

Someone just showed me a watch with this signature on the dial.
Size 18. Any info on this watchmaker ?
T.I.A.

******************
Was the 'J' possibly an 'S'?

A quick google search found an Edwin S. Radley

Edwin S. Radley, Fine Watches and Jewelry,
2404 Frankford Avenue (Philadelphia, circa 1890)

This website page....

http://homepage.mac.com/fpnc/heartland_horology/PhotoAlbum5.html

...shows a Radley private label Movement (an Illinois)


'nitials reversed, J & S

[A.F.W.]

Someone just showed me a watch with this signature on the dial.
Size 18. Any info on this watchmaker ?
T.I.A.

******************
Was the 'S' possibly a 'J'?

A quick google search found an Edwin S. Radley

Edwin S. Radley, Fine Watches and Jewelry,
2404 Frankford Avenue (Philadelphia, circa 1890)

This website page....

http://homepage.mac.com/fpnc/heartland_horology/PhotoAlbum5.html

...shows a Radley private label Movement (an Illinois)


Thank you, it was my mistake in middle initial.
Is the watch desirable or just another old watch ?

[Fred Hansen]

It sounds very likely that this is a private-label (custom marked) watch from one of the main makers.

With this there are a whole lot of things the watch can be ... it might be a very common less desirable piece, or it could be something very rare and desirable. But the key point is what the baseline watch the private-label was made from is ... if it is a 7 jewel Elgin it is likely less desirable, if it is a 24 jewel Illinois is is very desirable.

Is there any possibility of posting pics of the watch, or if not of posting the complete set of movement markings including serial number?

Fred

[LloydB]

Just to expand slightly on what Fred wrote...

...a jeweler who ordered 'private label' watches
from one maker, often would also order them from
other makers, or order several different sizes and
models. As a result, the same jeweler's name could
appear on a variety of movements and/or dials.

Unless the watch you're asking about is *exactly*
the same model as in the web page posted above
(seems unlikely) there's no way for anyone here
to comment on its rarity, etc.

If you can post images of the movement (or more),
that would begin to clear up most questions.

[A.F.W.]

Just to expand slightly on what Fred wrote...

...a jeweler who ordered 'private label' watches
from one maker, often would also order them from
other makers, or order several different sizes and
models. As a result, the same jeweler's name could
appear on a variety of movements and/or dials.

Unless the watch you're asking about is *exactly*
the same model as in the web page posted above
(seems unlikely) there's no way for anyone here
to comment on its rarity, etc.

If you can post images of the movement (or more),
that would begin to clear up most questions.




Thank you gentlemen. I will try to get a pic. of the movement.

[A.F.W.]

O.K. here is a picture I took with my phone camera thus the picture not too good. Can you identify the movement from this image ?
Thanks.
http://www.afinewatch.com/images/Radley.jpg

[Tom McIntyre]

It is an 18 size, probably 11 or 15 jewel, nickel finish Illinois watch.

Fred is brilliant at picking out details from pictues and may be able to tell you the grade. If you could have captured the serial number it would be easy to identify it since there is a database available.

[Fred Hansen]

I'll give this one a shot but I definitely think Tom is giving me too much credit there. Thanks for a nice compliment though ... :)

The watch is an 18 size Illinois and an open face model 4 or model 6. If it is a pendent-set watch its a model 4, if a lever-set watch its a model 6.

Picking which Illinois grade is pretty tough from the photo and we really do need the serial number to be sure, but I think most likely it is a 15 jewel grade 61 movement. There were a little over 7000 total of this grade produced between the model 4 and 6 from about 1890 to 1903, and the finish and damaskeen are just about what I see as being in the photo above. But there are other grades from this timeframe with a similar look and the other next most likely possibilities I'd pick would be the grades 51, 57, 64, and 99. But again it is the serial number that will confirm and make this no longer a guess as to grade.

As far as desirability, I'd say the safest approach is to consider this watch pretty much the same way you would any 18 size 11-15 jewel model 4/6 Illinois in equal condition. There is a small premium to the watch above this for some collectors due to the private-label markings, but Illinois made thousands of different private-label markings so I'd say the PL markings add only a modest increase in interest unless you happen to find a collector out there with a very specific interest in Edwin Radley marked items.

Most likely the watch will match to one of the grades above with a total production in the thousands, and in this case the grade wouldn't be considered especially scarce or rare and I'd say could be considered pretty similar to any 15 jewel (or 11J if that is the case) open face Illinois from the same era. But even if the watch does end up matching to a scarcer grade or variant with a production total in the low hundreds, there is often not a whole lot more collector interest as there aren't many collectors out there looking to collect each variant of the numbered Illinois grades. This was discussed once on this board at a thread that can be viewed by clicking here (http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=3;gtid=50653).

Hope this helps, and looking forward to the serial number so we can give a concrete answer to just which 18 size Illinois this is.

Fred

[A.F.W.]

Thank you gentlemen. I have to train my brain to make a note of serial number when I am out "hunting" .

[A.F.W.]

I'll give this one a shot but I definitely think Tom is giving me too much credit there. Thanks for a nice compliment though ... :)

The watch is an 18 size Illinois and an open face model 4 or model 6. If it is a pendent-set watch its a model 4, if a lever-set watch its a model 6.

Picking which Illinois grade is pretty tough from the photo and we really do need the serial number to be sure, but I think most likely it is a 15 jewel grade 61 movement. There were a little over 7000 total of this grade produced between the model 4 and 6 from about 1890 to 1903, and the finish and damaskeen are just about what I see as being in the photo above. But there are other grades from this timeframe with a similar look and the other next most likely possibilities I'd pick would be the grades 51, 57, 64, and 99. But again it is the serial number that will confirm and make this no longer a guess as to grade.

As far as desirability, I'd say the safest approach is to consider this watch pretty much the same way you would any 18 size 11-15 jewel model 4/6 Illinois in equal condition. There is a small premium to the watch above this for some collectors due to the private-label markings, but Illinois made thousands of different private-label markings so I'd say the PL markings add only a modest increase in interest unless you happen to find a collector out there with a very specific interest in Edwin Radley marked items.

Most likely the watch will match to one of the grades above with a total production in the thousands, and in this case the grade wouldn't be considered especially scarce or rare and I'd say could be considered pretty similar to any 15 jewel (or 11J if that is the case) open face Illinois from the same era. But even if the watch does end up matching to a scarcer grade or variant with a production total in the low hundreds, there is often not a whole lot more collector interest as there aren't many collectors out there looking to collect each variant of the numbered Illinois grades. This was discussed once on this board at a thread that can be viewed by clicking here (http://www.nawcc-mb.com/bbv2/bbBoard.cgi?a=viewthread;fid=3;gtid=50653).

Hope this helps, and looking forward to the serial number so we can give a concrete answer to just which 18 size Illinois this is.

Fred




O.K. so I went to see the gentleman who has this watch and got the serial number 1204045.
T.I.A. afinewatch

[Fred Hansen]

Serial number 1204045 does match to a model 6 grade 61, and as the photo shows a watch without jeweling at the center wheel this would be a 15 jewel that you are looking at.

Russ Snyder's database estimates production of this model 6 15 jewel grade 61 at 4908 ... not especially common, but also not a low enough number that I would consider it especially scarce either.

Of these 4908 made, only a very small fraction would have been private-label marked for this particular individual, and the rest would be mixed between a multitude of other private-label marked watches and some factory marked.

I've followed Illinois private-labels for a few years now, and this is the fourth watch I've heard of now in this run of 100 grade 61 at serials 1204001-1204100. Each of these has had a different private-label name and this is very typical of what I am seeing for most runs that contain these type of private-labels ... that many different markings will be mixed very close to one another in serial number and that the production of any individual name is usually very small within a run.

Fred

[A.F.W.]

Serial number 1204045 does match to a model 6 grade 61, and as the photo shows a watch without jeweling at the center wheel this would be a 15 jewel that you are looking at.

Russ Snyder's database estimates production of this model 6 15 jewel grade 61 at 4908 ... not especially common, but also not a low enough number that I would consider it especially scarce either.

Of these 4908 made, only a very small fraction would have been private-label marked for this particular individual, and the rest would be mixed between a multitude of other private-label marked watches and some factory marked.

I've followed Illinois private-labels for a few years now, and this is the fourth watch I've heard of now in this run of 100 grade 61 at serials 1204001-1204100. Each of these has had a different private-label name and this is very typical of what I am seeing for most runs that contain these type of private-labels ... that many different markings will be mixed very close to one another in serial number and that the production of any individual name is usually very small within a run.

Fred



Thank you for the info.

[A.F.W.]

Serial number 1204045 does match to a model 6 grade 61, and as the photo shows a watch without jeweling at the center wheel this would be a 15 jewel that you are looking at.

Russ Snyder's database estimates production of this model 6 15 jewel grade 61 at 4908 ... not especially common, but also not a low enough number that I would consider it especially scarce either.

Of these 4908 made, only a very small fraction would have been private-label marked for this particular individual, and the rest would be mixed between a multitude of other private-label marked watches and some factory marked.

I've followed Illinois private-labels for a few years now, and this is the fourth watch I've heard of now in this run of 100 grade 61 at serials 1204001-1204100. Each of these has had a different private-label name and this is very typical of what I am seeing for most runs that contain these type of private-labels ... that many different markings will be mixed very close to one another in serial number and that the production of any individual name is usually very small within a run.

Fred


You say it is not common but not scarce either.
would one be better off buying this watch or a nice Hamilton 992 or 992B
in a gf case ?
Thanks.

[Kent]

... would one be better off buying this watch or a nice Hamilton 992 or 992B
in a gf case ?
Thanks.


It depends upon just what it is that you would like to collect!

I recently bought a 17-jewel private label Columbus that I'd much rather have than a generic 992 or 992B.

[A.F.W.]

... would one be better off buying this watch or a nice Hamilton 992 or 992B
in a gf case ?
Thanks.


It depends upon just what it is that you would like to collect!

I recently bought a 17-jewel private label Columbus that I'd much rather have than a generic 992 or 992B.


I have been buying pocket watches for the last several years.
I have no specific focus, I buy what I feel is a good value.
So far I have about 35 pocket watches. I guess there will be time when I will start to let go of some less desirable pieces.
This watch in question here has a nice dial but the case has had a lot of wear.