American Pocket Watch Waltham Co.

[gtaylor]

I have a pocket watch with the following number ids:

Watch: 6000128

Case: SFM00 127597

I am trying to obtain as much information about this watch as possible. It was given to me as a gift in the 1970s; I am giving it to my son on his wedding day this summer. Therefore, I would like to give him its historical information as well as to learn of its monetary worth. The case itself is quite ornate. Is there a way to research information on the case?

What I have learned is the watch was made between 8/1/1892 and 1/31/1900. It has 21 jewels (21 is marked on the watch itself). Model is 1888. The grade is AM.W.Co., NL The plate is /PS and NL; what does this mean?

Thanks for any help that can be provided.

[rrwatch]

Your Waltham, Serial No. 6000128, is listed in the factory records as being a 17 jewel movement. While errors in the records are known to exist, this would be correct for a marked AM.W.Co., grade. I have seen a number of movements falsely marked with an incorrect jewel count, but only a clear close-up scan of the top plate of the movement will tell for sure.
The "PS" means that the movement is pendant set, that is, to set the hands you pull up on the winding crown until it snaps into the setting position. In the setting position, turning the winding crown will move the hands.
The "NL" stands for not listed.

[Fred Hansen]

Is your movement signed "American Watch Co." or is it signed with an abbreviated form of the word "American"?

Ed has correctly reported what the factory records state, but I believe there is a known exception to the accuracy of the jewel count record in some of these "American Watch Co." grade runs in that the jewel counts listed do not include the cap jeweling of the train of the watch ... so the actual jewel count is higher than listed in the records for a number of the American Watch Co. grade movements.

If your watch is indeed a 21 jewel American Watch Co. grade, I would expect it to look a lot like this example shown on Tom McIntyre's webpage ...

http://awco.org/AWCo/American/21J88of/21J%2088%20OF.htm

We are not allowed to discuss values on this board, but if your watch is indeed an 1888 model American grade as is Tom's, this ranks at the top end of Waltham's product line of the time and is a very desirable watch. Condition, presence of correct dial style, and case content and originality will also be important factors to its specific value.

For some more good reading and comparison here is a look at the 19 jewel version of this watch, also from Tom's site ...

http://awco.org/AWCo/American/19J88OF/index.htm

And here is a look at Tom's overall page for "American Watch Co." grade production ...

http://awco.org/AWCo/AWCoGrade.htm

Fred

[gtaylor]

Thanks, Fred, for responding. I have attached a photo of the movement. I'm assuming from the serial number that the watch was made in 1892. It keeps excellent time; hopefully, my son will hand it down some day to his son.

G Taylor

Is your movement signed "American Watch Co." or is it signed with an abbreviated form of the word "American"?

Ed has correctly reported what the factory records state, but I believe there is a known exception to the accuracy of the jewel count record in some of these "American Watch Co." grade runs in that the jewel counts listed do not include the cap jeweling of the train of the watch ... so the actual jewel count is higher than listed in the records for a number of the American Watch Co. grade movements.

If your watch is indeed a 21 jewel American Watch Co. grade, I would expect it to look a lot like this example shown on Tom McIntyre's webpage ...

http://awco.org/AWCo/American/21J88of/21J%2088%20OF.htm

We are not allowed to discuss values on this board, but if your watch is indeed an 1888 model American grade as is Tom's, this ranks at the top end of Waltham's product line of the time and is a very desirable watch. Condition, presence of correct dial style, and case content and originality will also be important factors to its specific value.

For some more good reading and comparison here is a look at the 19 jewel version of this watch, also from Tom's site ...

http://awco.org/AWCo/American/19J88OF/index.htm

And here is a look at Tom's overall page for "American Watch Co." grade production ...

http://awco.org/AWCo/AWCoGrade.htm

Fred

[gtaylor]

Thank you for responding, Ed. I have attached a photo of the dial and you'll notice the photo of the movement that I attached for Fred.

G Taylor

[gtaylor]

Another question: Did a different company make the cases or were those also made by A.W.W.Co.?

[Fred Hansen]

Beautiful watch!

That dial with the A.W.W.Co. signature in that distinctive font is correct to your 21 jewel "American Watch Co." grade movement.

In looking up your serial number in the online Waltham lookup ...

http://www.nawcc-info.org/WalthamDB/LookupSN.asp

... I see a date range from 8/1/1892 to 1/31/1900 listed for this run at serials 6000000 to 6000900. I'm not sure why there is such a wide span of these dates or what this might mean to the production date of your particular watch.

The gold case of your watch would have been made by a separate casemaker, but I don't think I recognize the "S.F.M.Co." initials. Given the quality of your watch I would expect this was a very fine casemaker, and hopefully someone can identify the casemaker for you from these initials.

Your movement would have been very expensive in original price, an 1899 Waltham advertisement reproduced in Roy Ehrhardt's "Volume 1" book (page 111) shows the 21J 1888 model American Watch Co. grade movement at a list price of $125.00. To put this in context ... the same ad shows other 1888 models including the 17 jewel "Riverside" at $37.50, the 17 jewel grade 640 at $26.25, the 15 jewel grade 28 at $19.38, and the 7 jewel grade 20 at $8.75.

This is a great piece from among the top end of American watchmaking and it will make a wonderful gift for your son and is one that I am sure he will be very proud to own!

Fred

[Paul Regan]

Here is one from the same run and it is a AMn grade 17J. #6,000,269. Paul

[Tom McIntyre]

The ledgers list the 901 watches from 6,000,000 to 6,000,900 as all American Grade but that seems unlikely given when they were made. It was taking a long time to move these and some runs were not completed before the ledger project around 1900.

The odd thing about this watch to me is that the 21 Jewels is written on the barrel bridge rather than up by the name. I don't think I have seen it there before, but the font sure looks correct to me.

I agree it is a very nice watch and I like the old English style dial. I think that in the later production, the script and block letter signatures were probably more common on the higher grades.

The run is interesting because it starts at 6,000,000 instead of at 6,000,001. The preceding block of watches from 5,999,951 to 5,999,999 are blank and were likely none made.

There are actually two sets of ledgers that differ in many of the earlier runs, but this run is listed identically in both sets. It is on page 177 of the 266 page book and on page 185 of the 220 page book.

correct arithmatic