need opinion on servicing old Elgin

[andy b.]

i need some expert help in making a decision. well, any help will do. ;)

i picked up an Elgin pocket watch about seven years ago to wear for Civil War reenacting (yes, i know it isn't "period correct", but it looks close enough to the untrained observer, and didn't cost $500). i don't have the serial number handy, but it is an 18s from 1888 i believe. when i bought it, it would run okay for a day or so, but sometimes would stop after 6-12 hours. i had the mainspring replaced (by a fellow local NAWCC member), and we did a general visual evaluation of the watch. no complete disassembly or anything.

i would wear the watch on occasion, but mainly used it during reenacting events several times a year. the watch will now only run for a few hours and stops. if you hold it in your palm and give a slight twist of your hand, it will start running again. my guess is that it needs a real cleaning.

here is my dilemma. i helped replace the mainspring and have played around with a few junk movements i have (none the same as this Elgin though). i would like to try my hand at giving a thorough cleaning to this watch. i have the necessary basic tools, as well as eye loops and a stereo microscope. i was going to buy a junk Elgin movement like mine so i could experiment with it, but haven't found any real cheap ones on the large auction site (you know where i mean). i didn't pay all that much for this watch, and i'm thinking why buy a "cheap" junk movement that cost only a few dollars less than i paid for my watch, when i could just do the work on my actual watch. so, should i just bite the bullet and work on my watch, should i buy a non-working movement to play around with first, should i send it off and pay someone to clean it and not ever get to learn to do it myself???? i am really leaning towards just doing it myself. i feel confident i won't break anything, but my biggest worry is getting it all back together. it is an 18-size, so it is a bigger movement, and it is a common Elgin, so i'm guessing i can find lots of help if i run into trouble.

oh, and this has nothing to do with my help request, i just renewed my NAWCC membership this morning. i had let it lapse, and figured as long as i am visiting here again, i should at least support the NAWCC. plus i always found the journal interesting.

thanks for any words of wisdom. :)

andy b.

[Kent]

" my guess is that it needs a real cleaning."

Good guess!

"... should i send it off and pay someone to clean it and not ever get to learn to do it myself?"

If you've only got the one watch and are not likely to get more than a few others, this seems like the best way to go. Check out What You Need To Know About Watch Repair at Wayne Schlitt's Elgin Website:
www.midwestcs.com/elgin/help/watch_repair.html
To view, go to the Elgin Watch Collectors Site Home Page at elginwatches.org, then copy and paste the address in your browser's address bar and click on 'Go'.


... i just renewed my NAWCC membership this morning. "

Welcome back!

[Don Dahlberg]

Overhauling a watch is not easy. It is not like working on a car. Watches are very small, complicated and delicate. When I overhaul a watch, half my time is spend undoing other's "repairs".

This does not mean you cannot learn to overhaul your watch, but you should not start on a watch you care about. You WILL do damage to your first few watches. Also 18 size watches are more difficult to start with than a 16 size watch. Also you need special tools and equipement. Most of all you need knowledge from texts and those who have done it before.

In the NAWCC school it take about two weeks to learn how to clean a watch properly. This includes learning the basic parts and how they work together. This is how we know how to put a watch back together. There are no diagrams for these things, but if you know how the parts function together, you can put together a watch you have never seen before. You also learn what oils and greases to use, how much to use and how to apply them. You learn how to inspect a watch as you assemble it and see potential problems. Finally you learn to make basic adjustments.

If there is something wrong with the watch, what will you do? I just put together a watch and it runs well in five positons except dial up. On inspection I missed that one balance pivot is scored. By the way, I should had seen that as I was putting it together the first time. I need to polish the pivot with a Jacot lathe. Another piece of equipment you need and the skill to use it.

A good watchmaking school like a WOSEP program is two years full time. You can learn the basics in about ten months full time at something like the NAWCC School of Horology. You can learn the basics on pocket watches in about 9 weeks full time. I am talking about cleaning, assembly, adjusting, rejeweling, restaffing, and hairspring work. This is with the aid of an instructor and does not really included the time to practice to get good at these operations.

Having said all this, you can learn to do this without going to school. The best way is to go to your local chapter meeting and find someone willing to teach you. There are many who are. You also need to read watchmaking texts so you understand what is going on and to know if the fellow who is helping you knows how to do it right. You practice on low grade 16 size Elgins and Walthams that are slightly more than parts watches. Parts are easy to find and there is no great harm it you damage them. If while learning to clean a watch, you find problems, you then get to learn to repair the problem. Gradually you purchase your own equipment. Start saving a few thousand dollars now, because the watchmaker who dies with the most tools wins. Seriosly, you cannot do any repair without a good lathe. There are basic tools like a bench, good lighting, tweezers of various types, pinvises, a good set of screwdrivers, oils and greases, Rodico and a dozens of there small tools, parts and materials. Soon you want a cleaning machine, timing machine, disecting microscope and the list goes on.

I notice you are in Pennsylvania and you are a member of NAWCC. If you are near south central PA, you are in watch heaven. There are many chances to learn here. I DO NOT WANT TO DISCOURAGE YOU FROM LEARNING WATCHMAKING. You are more likely not to become discourage if you learn how to do it right.

If you would like to talk to me about this, feel free to contact me at dahlberg@lve.edu

Don Dahlberg
NAWCC Volunteer

[andy b.]

Kent and Don,

THANK YOU for the replies!
yes, the one thing that has stopped me from delving further into watch repair is that i only have two pocket watches (this Elgin and the PS Bartlett i posted about recently), and don't plan on making a career out of this. :) what bothers me is that watches CAN be repaired, and i really want to be able to say i did it myself. i've repaired and rebuilt everything from sewing machines to 4-ton bulldozers to N-scale trains to computers to old wood working machinery. heck, if a pocket watch had a face 12" in diameter and weighed 10 pounds i would have already attempted a cleaning (i guess that would make it a clock though :D ). i do have several of the recommended watch and clock repair books (and have read them cover to cover) and i believe the tools and supplies to do a cleaning.

i do not have any repair experience, and to be clear my goal would be just to disassemble the watch and do a cleaning. if it still didn't run correctly, then i would more than likely have to send it to a proper repair person.

i do have an additional question. i didn't realize the 16S watches were easier to work on. would that be a better size to practice on first? i have resisted buying any more pocket watches because i have an addiction problem :) (one sewing machine turned into ten, one fountain pen turned into 12, and i could very easily see two pocket watches turning into just as many). i'd be more than willing to pick up another pocket watch, purely for educational purposes though. i'm thinking even an average running Elgin that was taken apart and put back together and still ran, would be a good learning experience.

oh, and Don, you'll be receiving an email from me later today.

andy b.

[lak611]

i do not have any repair experience, and to be clear my goal would be just to disassemble the watch and do a cleaning. if it still didn't run correctly, then i would more than likely have to send it to a proper repair person.

The watchmaker that I go to has a funny sign in his shop. It says something like this: "Fee is $75 an hour, $100 an hour if you watch, $125 an hour if you watch and talk to me, $150 an hour if I have to fix something you attempted to do yourself."

[andy b.]

If you would like to talk to me about this, feel free to contact me at dahlberg@lve.edu

Don Dahlberg
NAWCC Volunteer


Don,

i attempted to email you, but the address listed comes back as invalid. i also attempted to PM you, but i received a message that you can't be PM'd.

andy b.

[Don Dahlberg]

You are within driving distance of Columbia, PA, take a look at the weekend workshop on beginning watch servicing. See http://www.nawcc.org/school/workshops/wssched.htm Notice the August 2-3 workshop is already full. They added another for August 16-17.

If it is a long drive, you can stay in a B and B or motel Saturday night.

This workshp is enough, along with your reading, to go home and practice, practice and practice.

Don

[andy b.]

They added another for August 16-17.

Don



Don,

it looks like i may now have plans for Aug 16-17! :)

THANKS for the info!

andy b.

[richiec]

I have to agree with Dan that the school is a great place to learn the basics. of course there is nothing better than hands on. Luckily, I started to learn on cheap watches and by the time I came for my first class I was fairly skilled at picking up parts with a pair of tweezers, it is an art. Learning how to clean and oil a watch is an art unto itself. Wish I had the time to take the full course, i really would like to learn to make parts. I worked on cars for 31 years, rebuilding carbs and alternators so I am interested in that kind of thing rather than replacing modules but unfortunately i need to make money to survive otherwise i would be enrolled in school. Keep going, don't give up, learn, watches are a great experience.

[StanJS]

Don gave a lot of good advice....

>>> Overhauling a watch is not easy. It is not like working on a car. Watches are very small, complicated and delicate. When I overhaul a watch, half my time is spend undoing other's "repairs".

...and scared the willies out of me. I am just getting a few tools together and about to pick my first victim and Don tells me what a long, hard road it is. Oh well, there is a 7J Elgin and a 17J PS Bartlett that are about to meet the equivalent of a country quack using barnyard tools to perform a heart transplant.

Cheers,
Stan

[Don Dahlberg]

Whoops, it looks like I made a typo on my email. Let me try that again.

Dahlberg@LVC.EDU

Sorry about that.

Don

[Don Dahlberg]

I have been thinking about what I wrote.

NAWCC is about preserving watches. It is also about preserving watchmaking and getting more people into the hobby and the profession. Sometimes those goals are in conflict. :)

If you go into watchmaking with the right attitude it can be a great hobby and/or profession.

Do not go into it to save money. I got tired of paying my watchmaker to clean each new addition to my collection and waiting for him to get the job done. Since then I have spent tens of thousands on equipment to save thousands. It was worth it though. I have another hobby besides collecting. I think watchmaking is more interesting than collecting and it makes me more knowlegable in my collecting. I now what is easily fixed and what is difficult and expensive to fix. I am less impressed by horological glitz and more impressed by mechanical quality.

Do not go into it because you think it is easy. It is not, but it can be done. The neat thing is that there is always something more to learn.

It is very much a field that is intolerant to shortcuts. There is the RIGHT way to do most things. Most of the cleaver ideas you come up with have been tried and rejected for good reason 100 years ago (and several time since).

If you like solving really difficult mysteries, watchmaking is a good field to go into. There are two dozen potential causes for any set of symptoms. You have to use your knowledge of how watches work, your eyes and a great deal of patients to find the real cause of the problem. Then you need to skill to repair the problem in a way that keeps the watch as original as possible. If it was easy, it would not feel so good when you have detected and corrected a problem.

Finally you have to believe in preservation and restoration of watches. The idea is not just to get the watch to run, but return it to the state that it was in when it left the factory.

I highly recommend that you go to http://www.thepurists.com/watch/industryarticlesindex.html and then click on the links at the bottom for A Day in a Watch School.

Oh, one last thing. Watchmaking can be a very lucrative field if you get good training and work on high end watches. Recent graduates of a WOSTEP program start at more than I made as a Full Professor.

Don