Gilbert 8 day #20

[Phineas]

Hi,

I've been lurking here for awhile and can usually find any answers I need with a quick search, but now I'm stuck.
I have a Gilbert 8 day that I can get to run, but the pendulum barely moves. It just doesn't have any "oomph" to it at all. To make things interesting, the tension washer is fairly loose, so the hands don't always move. If I tighten it up, then the clock stops. I'm thinking I need to replace the mainspring, but I'm hoping not. It's something of a pain to put back together. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I have checked the gears, pivots and holes, they all look fine. I did have to replace the chime side spring, it blew when I was letting the power down. I should have replaced both springs then, but the run side looked OK. When the chime side blew, it torqued a couple of gears in the chime train, which I replaced and it works fine.

I'm starting to put a dent in my bench with my forehead over this.....

[shutterbug]

I have a Gilbert 8 day that I can get to run, but the pendulum barely moves. It just doesn't have any "oomph" to it at all. To make things interesting, the tension washer is fairly loose, so the hands don't always move. If I tighten it up, then the clock stops. I'm thinking I need to replace the mainspring, but I'm hoping not. It's something of a pain to put back together.

It would be helpful to know what kind of escapement this is, but I can assure you that this is not a problem with the mainspring! Take a good close (with a loupe or magnifying glass) at the points on your escape wheel teeth. It they are bent over, you need to pull them straight (use search for information on how to do this). If that's not it, then you have another issue in the power train that you missed.

[Thyme]

Hi,

I've been lurking here for awhile and can usually find any answers I need with a quick search, but now I'm stuck.
I have a Gilbert 8 day that I can get to run, but the pendulum barely moves. It just doesn't have any "oomph" to it at all.

Does this movement have an adjustment for the depth of the pallets, meaning the degree to which they contact the escape wheel? That will cause the pendulum to barely move while running. If so, you will need to play with that adjustment to get it correct and get a healthy swing to the pendulum.

To make things interesting, the tension washer is fairly loose, so the hands don't always move. If I tighten it up, then the clock stops.

This I don't understand. By "tension washer" do you mean that the hands are pinned to the shaft and that there is a washer with a square hole just under the securing pin, over the minute hand? If the hands are loose, why would they not always move? ???

I doubt that this is related to the escapement issue (above) but if you correct that adjustment first, it should run without stopping.

[Phineas]

Thanks for the replies.

Shutterbug: I should have posted a picture, I'll try to get one up in the morning. It's a typical American movement with a between the plates escapement. Some of the teeth in the escape wheel look a little off. I'll try straightening them.

Thyme: I have tried to adjust the depth, but just don't seem to get any "recoil" out of the pendulum.

The tension washer I'm referring to is between the plates on the shaft. It has three little nubs that put pressure on the gear so the hands will move and there's a tapered pin that holds it in place. I probably have the name wrong, but that's what I've always called it. :?|

[Scottie-TX]

PHI; The procedure for getting maximum impulse - recoil - is to bring the pallet strip closer to the Escape wheel until it can no longer unlock. ( escape wheel cannot escape) Then move pallets away from wheel VERY slowly and carefully until wheel can escape - unlock. Then move it just a gnat's hair further away to compensate for any irregulatities.
Now. If this does not produce a robust swing with good recoil, you'll need to start looking at the wheel itself as others suggest and consider the pallet angles as well as the gap between them.
I know you've made certain both pallet arbor and EW arbor bushings are good. Very important.

[Thyme]

PHI; The procedure for getting maximum impulse - recoil - is to bring the pallet strip closer to the Escape wheel until it can no longer unlock. ( escape wheel cannot escape) Then move pallets away from wheel VERY slowly and carefully until wheel can escape - unlock. Then move it just a gnat's hair further away to compensate for any irregulatities.
Now. If this does not produce a robust swing with good recoil, you'll need to start looking at the wheel itself as others suggest and consider the pallet angles as well as the gap between them.
I know you've made certain both pallet arbor and EW arbor bushings are good. Very important.

As usual, Scottie provides a very good description of how to do the adjustment. :thumb:

Am I correct in assuming that this movement has only one adjustment on the front of it? Or is it the type that has adjusting arms on both the front and back plates of the movement? Those can be tougher to adjust in that the angle of pitch is variable. In any event, DO keep trying to adjust it; sometimes it can be tricky and take a while to get a good recoil out of it.

Other questions: if you move the crutch back and forth by hand to advance the escape wheel, will the wheel go a full revolution without hanging up or skipping? If not, you will need to examine the escape wheel teeth. Have you removed the verge and inspected the pallets for wear? Quite often you might find an actual groove worn in a pallet, which will affect the running. Also check for play and wear in the pivot points for the verge.

If you remove the pendulum and tilt the movement so the crutch will stay in motion, will it continue to run?

[Phineas]

Thanks Scottie, I've been trying your suggestions for adjusting the pallet and while it does run, the lack of enthusiasm is startling. It just kind of rocks back and forth, barely moving. I did pull the pallet arbor and EW, inspected them, (they looked good), polished the pivots and pegged the holes, again, and it's still being lazy.

Thyme, it is the type with adjusting arms on both front and back. The verge and pallets look fine. Some light scratches where the EW teeth hit, but nothing out of the ordinary and no grooving. The EW will skip on occasion, but I am able to adjust it so that the skipping stops.

If I give the pendulum a push, it looks and sounds great for about one revolution then starts slowing down and sounds like it is going out of beat. I can get it back in beat, but the motion is almost non-existent.

I think it's losing power somewhere, but all the pivot holes look fine and I have good end-shake on all the gears, so I can't figure out where. :bang:

If I remove the pendulum and tilt the movement so the crutch will stay in motion it doesn't run very long. A few ticks is all.

It almost seemslike the pallets are too far apart or too "high" to engage the EW properly.

Here's some pics:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/2405731837_4989ebdaf1.jpg?v=0
The Escapement

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2255/2406563682_5d094bf51d_m.jpg
The "Tension Ring"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/2405732553_b2b5325085_m.jpg
A pic that should go into the hallof shame thread. Yes, that's a Phillips head screw driver tip being used as a hammer. I offered to fix that as well, but they said it reminds them of the old man who gave them the clock.

[Scottie-TX]

Well; It's beginning to read, as you suspect - that power to the EW is lacking. But tell us: How many teeth on the EW and how many teeth are embraced between the pallets? Does the pallet strip look original?

[harold bain]

Phineas, from your second picture, your crutch loop looks too tight, and the suspension rod is not set in the middle. This could cause a lack of power to the pendulum.

[harold bain]

Phineas, from your second picture, your crutch loop looks too tight, and the suspension rod is not set in the middle. This could cause a lack of power to the pendulum.

[Phineas]

Scottie: There are 30 teeth in the EW and the pallet crosses roughly 7. It looks original, but there is very little needed swing needed between the 'tic' and the 'toc' which makes me suspect it of being not. If I move it in to lengthen the swing, it has next to no 'kick' and just doesn't run.

Thanks Harold. I lossened it up, but it didn't help.

It looks like I'm going to have to tear it back down again and see if I missed anything. :~(

[Jeremy Woodoff]

It also looks as though the crutch loop is at an angle to the pendulum rod, rather than perpendicular to it. Have you checked whether the crutch wire is tightly fastened to the pallet arbor?

[Scottie-TX]

Probly not a good idea at this juncture:
It looks like I'm going to have to tear it back down again and see if I missed anything.
If you dismantle it without knowing what the problem is, in all probability it will look the same as it did when you previously dismantled and assembled.
I would pursue the CAUSE of the problem and if remedy requires disassembly - THAT's a good reason.
How 'bout this:
When you watch the escape wheel in motion: Does it advance BRISKLY from one pallet to the next - or does it kind of just sort of lazily move onto the next one with little noise on impact ?
See, lazy motion would indicate a power problem - that the EW isn't getting ample power so can't sustain oscillations.
If that were true - lazy motion - lack of power - THEN (!) you'd have someting to seek when you dismantle.
But still: You'd still be better off in that case to determine WHY before disassembly. You'd know where to look.

[shutterbug]

From your picture, it looks like we're dealing with a half dead-beat escapement. It's hard to see. That would change the whole outlook, and drastically change the procedures for getting it running again. Please verify - do the points of the teeth run toward the rotation or away from it?

[Thyme]

Thyme, it is the type with adjusting arms on both front and back. The verge and pallets look fine. Some light scratches where the EW teeth hit, but nothing out of the ordinary and no grooving. The EW will skip on occasion, but I am able to adjust it so that the skipping stops.

I have found the type with dual adjustments very tricky to adjust. For example, I have an Ansonia long drop regulator that, when I first got it, would run very reliably, but the pendulum barely moved at all. After continued fussing with the adjustments I eventually got a good, healthy recoil from it (but it took repeated tinkering). Remember, with the two adjustments you can (or are) also changing the pitch or angle at which the pallets are meeting the escape wheel teeth.

If I give the pendulum a push, it looks and sounds great for about one revolution then starts slowing down and sounds like it is going out of beat. I can get it back in beat, but the motion is almost non-existent.

The beat should not vary. Again, this suggests a verge/escapement problem.

I think it's losing power somewhere, but all the pivot holes look fine and I have good end-shake on all the gears, so I can't figure out where. :bang:

If I remove the pendulum and tilt the movement so the crutch will stay in motion it doesn't run very long. A few ticks is all.

That tells me it has nothing to do with the pendulum; there is a more fundamental problem here. I have found that in a movement where everything is 'healthy', it will run without stopping without having the pendulum engaged. (Some will even run lying horizontal - believe it or not!)

Try this: let it run without the pendulum and when it stops, mark the escape wheel tooth with a marker. Let it run again and see where it stops again. Is there a pattern to where and when it stops? If you have bent or damaged escape wheel teeth you will find it will run for one portion of the escape wheel rotation, then stop where the teeth are not up to snuff. BTW, if the escape wheel teeth are bent, adjusting them is much tougher than making the verge adjustments. Don't ever attempt to bend escape teeth unless you are absolutely positive that is where the problem lies.

It almost seemslike the pallets are too far apart or too "high" to engage the EW properly.

I would continue to focus on the verge adjustment and the escape wheel teeth. If everything else you said is accurate, there should be no other reason for power loss.

[Willie X]

Phineas,

Check for lack of end shake on the minute hand shaft. Sounds like you have a cracked motion works gear. The cracked gear allows the hand clutch spring to push the cracked gear toward the front of the clock and cause just the problem you describe.

Cure is to disassemble the clock, take the minute hand shaft / clutch apart and repair the gear. I use the solder method but others prefer to drill and pin the cracked gear in place.

If this is ideed your problem, I and I'm sure others, will help with furthur descriptions of this common repair.

Willie X

[Phineas]

I think I may have it!

I kept playing with the adjustment arms and adjusting the crutch and it seems to be running much better. The swing is still a little less than I'm used to, but I'm fairly comfortable with it. Before, the pendulum barely moved. Now, it's quite a bit stronger than it was and has been running strong overnight.

If it keeps going, I'll tighten the ring up tomorrow and put the hands on it. I can't thank you all enough for your help on this. I was positive the mainspring was shot.
I'll let you know if keeps running or starts acting goofy again.

[Scottie-TX]

Well you've already thanked us MORE than enough but please share with us: What adjustments to the crutch improved the operation? Closing the loop? Bending it so beat was improved? What?
(thanks!)

[Thyme]

I think I may have it!

I kept playing with the adjustment arms and adjusting the crutch and it seems to be running much better. The swing is still a little less than I'm used to, but I'm fairly comfortable with it. Before, the pendulum barely moved. Now, it's quite a bit stronger than it was and has been running strong overnight.

Yep, the dual adjustment can be a PITA to adjust. :devil:

I had the feeling you just needed more time to tinker with it. :thumb:

If it keeps going, I'll tighten the ring up tomorrow and put the hands on it. I can't thank you all enough for your help on this. I was positive the mainspring was shot.

If the spring were weak (or very dirty and gummy) it might run for less than eight days - but with a fully wound spring a movement should run, regardless.

[Phineas]

Well Scottie, as you said, It was all about gnats hair adjustments. I'd move the arms to adjust the depth of the pallets, then bend the cruth to get it into beat. The thing that was killing me was the depth adjustments were always too deep or shallow and bending the crutch would either raise or lower the pallet just enough to screw it all up and make it seem like a power issue. I finally got everything in synch, just when I was running out of hair on my head.
Willie's post had me more than a little worried. I didn't even think of a cracked motion works gear. I'm glad I avoided that nightmare. But life is good now.

[quote]Yep, the dual adjustment can be a PITA to adjust. [/qoute]
And no fun at all!

[Scottie-TX]

Thanks, PH:
Reason you didn't get a quote format is you misspelled "quote"
[/qoute]

As you found, the best approach is a logical, methodical one. That will save you GOBS of time, guessing. That is, a LOT of time spent observing the escapement often leads you quickly to the CORRECT adjustment, rather than making adjustments that sometimes lead you further from instead of closer to the solution.
THANKS! Nice work, PH