Which Ball watches are most collectible?

[lak611]

I do not have any Ball watches yet, but I am thinking of acquiring some. Are the Waltham, Hamilton or Elgin Ball watches most collectible? Do you have any other tips for collecting Ball watches?

[BILL KAPP]

There are as many answers to this as there are collectors. Its a pretty subjective area.

Rule number one should be to get the best quality you can afford.
Rule number two should be to make sure that the watch you are buying is original and/or correct.

I prefer the older Ball and Co 18 sz hamilton Ball and Co watches. They are somewhat scarce but still obtainable. The ORRS in the earlier runs are actualy scarcer than the Brotherhoods or private labels but as they don't have the pizaaz, they can be obtained relatively reasonably.

Another advantage is that they are not found in Ball Marked cases so if the style is right and the case screw marks are correct, you don't have to worry too much about case swapping.

Knowing the proper dials can be tricky tho.

My Ball collection can be seen at

http://williamkapp.tripod.com/id32.htm


Other pages on that site have some interesting information about these early Ball and Co Hamilton's.

Happy hunting,

[Dr. Jon]

If you want something really oddball and interesting look for Ball Swiss watches. In addiiton to US railroad watches they handled some very high grade Swiss makes and often put them in their own cases.

[lak611]

There are as many answers to this as there are collectors. Its a pretty subjective area.

Rule number one should be to get the best quality you can afford.
Rule number two should be to make sure that the watch you are buying is original and/or correct.

I prefer the older Ball and Co 18 sz hamilton Ball and Co watches. They are somewhat scarce but still obtainable. The ORRS in the earlier runs are actualy scarcer than the Brotherhoods or private labels but as they don't have the pizaaz, they can be obtained relatively reasonably.

Another advantage is that they are not found in Ball Marked cases so if the style is right and the case screw marks are correct, you don't have to worry too much about case swapping.

Knowing the proper dials can be tricky tho.

My Ball collection can be seen at

http://williamkapp.tripod.com/id32.htm


Other pages on that site have some interesting information about these early Ball and Co Hamilton's.

Happy hunting,

Thank you, Bill. That is a very nice collection you have! I will try to find the watches not marked "Brotherhood".

[lak611]

If you want something really oddball and interesting look for Ball Swiss watches. In addiiton to US railroad watches they handled some very high grade Swiss makes and often put them in their own cases.
Thank you, Dr. Jon. I have seen some Ball Swiss watches on ebay. I was unsure if they really were Ball watches, or if that was some kind of thing that was not quite legitimate. Thanks for letting me know that they did handle Swiss watches, not just the US railroad watches. So far my collection only consists of US railroad watches.

[rrwatch]

Actually, some of the Swiss Ball watches, notably the 21 jewel Grades 435, 435B and 435C made by the Record Watch Co. for Ball, would pass railroad inspection on most, if not all, North American railroads.
According to some of the Ball records aquired by Jeff Hess, these Record Ball movements kept a better rate than the U S made Ball movements. Unlike the American Ball movements, they incorporated KIF shock protection on the balance (and some also on the pallet and escape arbors). They also had all of the usual railroad features such as meantime screws, adjustment to 6 positions, antimagnetic double roller escapements, lever setting and micrometer regulators.

[lak611]

Actually, some of the Swiss Ball watches, notably the 21 jewel Grades 435, 435B and 435C made by the Record Watch Co. for Ball, would pass railroad inspection on most, if not all, North American railroads.
According to some of the Ball records aquired by Jeff Hess, these Record Ball movements kept a better rate than the U S made Ball movements. Unlike the American Ball movements, they incorporated KIF shock protection on the balance (and some also on the pallet and escape arbors). They also had all of the usual railroad features such as meantime screws, adjustment to 6 positions, antimagnetic double roller escapements, lever setting and micrometer regulators.Thanks. I was under the impression that only American made watches were allowed for railroad use. I will look for the Record Ball watches.

[rrwatch]

Laura.
That is a common misconception. Swiss (and some German) made watches were used on U.S. as well as Canadian and Mexican railroads from at least the 1860's up through the 1960's. Several well known makers, including Gruen, Longines, Omega and Vacheron & Constantin actively advertised, in the Jewelers Circular and other publications, watches made for U. S. railroad use. Many other manufacturers made movements that would pass inspection on any railroad that would accept non U S made watches. Even some Patek Philippe & Co movements would have been accepted in the 1890's, if any railroader had had the money to purchase one. There were complaints, especially from the Railroad Brotherhoods, that not allowing Swiss watches under some railroads was primarily a plot to get railroaders under time service to buy the American watches that the railroad inspectors carried. The claim was made that Swiss replacement parts were not available, but the Canadian inspectors never had a problem in this regard and the complaints caused several railroads and time service firms to change their policies.
Although Swiss watch usage on the railroads dropped off after about 1910 there ware always some in service and by the 1960s, even Ball was importing 21 jewel watches made by the Record Watch Co. for use in time service.

[lak611]

Laura.
That is a common misconception. Swiss (and some German) made watches were used on U.S. as well as Canadia and Mexican railroads from at least the 1860's up through the 1960's. Several well known makers, including Gruen, Longines, Omega and Vacheron & Constantin actived advertised watches made for railroad use. Many others made movements that would pass inspection on any railroad that would accept non U S made watches. Even some Patek Philippe & co movements would have been accepted in the 1890's, if any railroader had the money to purchase one. There were cpmplaints, especially from the Railroad Brotherhoods the not allowing Swiss watches under some railroads was primarily a plot to get railroaders under time service to buy the American watches that the railroad inspectors carried. The claim was made that replacement parts were not available, but the Canadian nsprectors never had a problen in this regard and the complaints caused several railroads and time service firms to change their policies.
Although Swiss watch usage on the railroads dropped off after about 1910 there ware always some in service amd by the 1960s, even Ball watch Co was importing 21 jewel watches made by the Record Watch Co.
Thanks for letting me know. It makes sense that the railroad unions would have preferred American made watches. I would guess that the employees at the watch companies were probably in a union too.

[Dr. Jon]

To me the more interesting Swiss Ball watches are the non railroad, either very high end and 12 size watches.

Also I have seen one example of a Swiss movement with an American dial and case put together and sold by Ball.

[lak611]

To me the more interesting Swiss Ball watches are the non railroad, either very high end and 12 size watches.

Also I have seen one example of a Swiss movement with an American dial and case put together and sold by Ball.
What is the difference between the Swiss dial and American dial?

[Kent]

In 1954 (http://static.flickr.com/52/116126776_b50c78510a_o.jpg), Ball started supplying the Swiss-made Record Watch Co. made grade/caliber 435 series ORRS watches in place of the Hamilton-Ball 999B (http://photos5.flickr.com/9908165_be5bb688a1_o.jpg).

Ed Ueberall and I estimate that there are only about 250 or 300 of the grade No. 435 (http://photos9.flickr.com/15510852_05bbb94939_o.jpg) ORRS watches built. If you look carefully in the space framed by the center wheel and balance rim (right below the center jewel in the picture), you can see that the number "435" in an oval is stamped on the pillar plate.

We know that serial number 221 is a No. 435, while serial number 370 is a grade No. 435B (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/16S_21J_435B_2832_KLS.jpg). One change (and a minor one at that) to the No. 435 is that the regulator screw has been moved to the opposite side of the regulator arm.

The change to the No. 435C (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/16S_21J_435C_4321_KLS.jpg) is that the Kif shock protection (described above by Ed) on the pallet and escape arbors has been dropped and only the balance cap jewel still has Kif, or Incabloc, shock protection.

[Dr. Jon]

For most dials there is little to distinguish Swiss from American dials, especially because a lot of American made watches had Swiss made dials. However Swiss rarely made double sunk dials so a double sunk dial on a Ball Swiss watch may be an American Dial. Also I have seen a Vacheron & Constantin made by Ball with a Moorhouse dial and it was very distinctive. O'Hara also made fancy dials and I would expect to see one of them on a Swiss Ball watch.

[lak611]

For most dials there is little to distinguish Swiss from American dials, especially because a lot of American made watches had Swiss made dials. However Swiss rarely made double sunk dials so a double sunk dial on a Ball Swiss watch may be an American Dial. Also I have seen a Vacheron & Constantin made by Ball with a Moorhouse dial and it was very distinctive. O'Hara also made fancy dials and I would expect to see one of them on a Swiss Ball watch.
Thanks, Dr. Jon. Do you know if there are any links to pictures of the Vacheron & Constantin, Moorhouse, and O'Hara dials? I would like to see what those look like.

[Dr. Jon]

Here is a link to an example of a Moorhouse dial.

http://www.awco.org/Seminar2002/HowardTheme/h29.htm This site has links to more examples.

A google search on O'Hara dials will get you several. Most are active Ebay auctions which we don't link to from this site, but you can use to see them.

The Moorhouse Ball on a Vacheron and Constantin movement example is painful to me. I was bidding on it, at an auction not realizing it was a Moorhouse and let it go to a much more informed bidder.

[lak611]

Here is a link to an example of a Moorhouse dial.

http://www.awco.org/Seminar2002/HowardTheme/h29.htm This site has links to more examples.

A google search on O'Hara dials will get you several. Most are active Ebay auctions which we don't link to from this site, but you can use to see them.

The Moorhouse Ball on a Vacheron and Constantin movement example is painful to me. I was bidding on it, at an auction not realizing it was a Moorhouse and let it go to a much more informed bidder.

Those are really ornate, especially the O'Hara dials, which I did see plenty of examples after googling. They are definitely a lot different from the dials on the railroad watches.

[Dr. Jon]

Watch your bulletin.
There was or soon will be an article on the O'Hara dial company. They made a lot of dials and threw the rejects into the Charles River. Locals used to joke that the river was paved with enamel.

[lak611]

Watch your bulletin.
There was or soon will be an article on the O'Hara dial company. They made a lot of dials and threw the rejects into the Charles River. Locals used to joke that the river was paved with enamel.

I will look for the future bulletin articles. If it was already in a previous bulletin, I would appreciate finding out which one. I just joined the NAWCC last month, so I wouldn't have the past issues. Can I borrow an old issue from the library?

[Kent]

Back issues of the NAWCC Bulletin are available to members on loan by mail from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm).

[lak611]

Back issues of the NAWCC Bulletin are available to members on loan by mail from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm).

Thanks, Kent. Do you know if there already was an article on O'Hara dials in a previous bulletin? If so, which one was it?

[Kent]

Laura:

There is an Online Bulletin Index (http://www.nawcc.us/BulletinIndex/bulsrch.htm) that can be used to locate specific subjects. I tried searching for variations of Ohara (it didn't like the apostrophe), but didn't find anything. However, I thought that I had seen an article on O'Hara dials.

Good luck,

[lak611]

Laura:

There is an Online Bulletin Index (http://www.nawcc.us/BulletinIndex/bulsrch.htm) that can be used to locate specific subjects. I tried searching for variations of Ohara (it didn't like the apostrophe), but didn't find anything. However, I thought that I had seen an article on O'Hara dials.

Good luck,I tried the bulletin index but did not find anything either.

[Kent]

Now I remember! I saw Gerrit Nijssen's presentation at the 2006 Symposium in Cleveland. Gerrit's program now on a Video (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/vhs2.htm), available on loan, by mail, to members, from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/lending.htm).


849. DVD & VHS. ““THE O’HARA STORY””-by Gerrit Nijssen (68). Gerrit’s presentation is on the multitalented and multifaceted individual Daniel O’Hara. O’Hara started his career as a case engraver and progressed to become head of the case department at the Waltham Watch Company. Management changes caused O’Hara to change careers. He went into dial manufacturing and real estate. This presentation is a detailed account of O’Hara’s career and the products he manufactured for the watch and other industries.

[lak611]

Now I remember! I saw Gerrit Nijssen's presentation at the 2006 Symposium in Cleveland. Gerrit's program now on a Video (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/vhs2.htm), available on loan, by mail, to members, from the NAWCC Library & Research Center (http://www.nawcc.org/Library/lending.htm).


849. DVD & VHS. ““THE O’HARA STORY””-by Gerrit Nijssen (68). Gerrit’s presentation is on the multitalented and multifaceted individual Daniel O’Hara. O’Hara started his career as a case engraver and progressed to become head of the case department at the Waltham Watch Company. Management changes caused O’Hara to change careers. He went into dial manufacturing and real estate. This presentation is a detailed account of O’Hara’s career and the products he manufactured for the watch and other industries.
Thank you! That is great. I will order the DVD.