18s 19J Bunn with Jewelled Barrel

[HUDD]

Having recently bought a 19J Bunn ( # 2019336 ) I've carefully dismantled ready for a clean and repair. However, this is the first time I've come across a jewelled barrel in the flesh so to speak.

I removed the barrel cap OK and assumed the arbour would just push out as with a non jewelled barrel. It wouldn't. Can someone in the know explain how I go about removing the arbour from the barrel ? It doesn't seem to want to unscrew or push out, and I don't want to do any damage to the lower arbour jewel especially as I found a hard light pink flake stuck to the bottom of the barrel on disassembly. A part of a damaged barrel arbour jewel ?

If the lower barrel arbour jewel is in need of replacement, can someone please advise the jewel size I would need as a replacement ? If I knew the size I could possibly find a Seitz replacement from a recently acquired jewel collection. It has over 650 jewels with a lot of large ones ( up to 100/200 ).

Hudd

[HUDD]

Still not able to remove arbour from barrel so I decided not to try anything drastic. Better to leave be, especially as arbour seems to rotate smoothly in barrel.

I've now cleaned and oiled the movement and replaced it in it's original case with a replacement original dial and a new alloy mainspring. The original dial as fitted was badly damaged. However I think the "new" dial is too early for this model ? Can anyone confirm from the photos please ?

It runs silky smooth with great motion. I shall use this as my regular watch for a while once I've got it timed.

Hope the photos come out OK.

Hudd

[Jon Hanson]

where is Bryan's response to this?

[rrwatch]

Are you sure that your Bunn has a jeweled barrel? Most of the Illinois movements that incorporated sleeve jewels were marked "Jeweled barrel" on the plates.
Also, although I cannot see for sure, it appears that there is a cap jewel over the pallet arbor. If it is capped jeweled, that would account for the 18th and 19th jewels.

[Cary Hurt]

Jon,

I moved the entire thread to the American pocket watch forum, (as Brian suggested) but when I checked, Brian's reply went with it. Perhaps an administrator removed it after the move. Otherwise, I'm puzzled as well.

Cary

[terry hall]

ED
Look on page 85 of the Meggers-Ehrhardt book ....

the movement description in there indicates "friction reducing barrel, having two extra jewels"....

The other movement variaints are marked "jeweled barrel"

I can understand that you may see cap jewels in the image, I can't see em well enough to determine.


HuDD,

I would not worry about the open top four dial... but it is most likely older than the movement...

[Bryan Eyring]

Yeah I noticed that earlier - perhaps an idiosyncrasy with the software?

[HUDD]

Are you sure that your Bunn has a jeweled barrel? Most of the Illinois movements that incorporated sleeve jewels were marked "Jeweled barrel" on the plates.
Also, although I cannot see for sure, it appears that there is a cap jewel over the pallet arbor. If it is capped jeweled, that would account for the 18th and 19th jewels.

Hi rrwatch and terry hall

Yes, I'm certain it has a jewelled barrel. I cleaned the barrel cap jewel but being unable to remove the arbour from the barrel I couldn't check and clean the barrel jewel. Both cap and barrel bottom have a boss that contains a large friction jewel. My guess is that the arbour is in two parts screwed together with a left hand thread. I tried gently to undo, but decided not to apply too much force in case I did damage.

By the way, there are no cap jewels over the pallet arbour as in the 21J bunn Specials, and the pallet arbour therefore has straight and not coned pivots.

As to the dial, thanks for the confirmation that it appears older than the movement. I had it in my drawer for ages, but when I placed it next to the damaged one on the movement originally I could see differences.

It seems to be a thing that Illinois 18s dials seem to suffer damage much more easilly than other contemporary manufacturers ? Is this opinion shared ?

Hudd

[LloydB]

It seems to be a thing that Illinois 18s dials seem to suffer
damage much more easilly than other contemporary manufacturers ?
Is this opinion shared ?

Hudd

My experience with Seth Thomas (Model 5's at least)
has led me to expect damage as a regular 'feature',
but I haven't played with enough Illinois to make the
necessary comparison.

Possibly related... is the incidence of identifiable
*replacement* dials higher on certain Illinois 18-s
models than on others?

Is evidence of damage or replacement on RR examples
more likely (from different/heavier patterns of usage)?

(Maybe this topic-tangent deserves its own thread?)

[Russ Snyder]

Ed & Terry,

I noted Bill Meggers comments on p. 85, but check out the advertisement on p. 194 #4. It specifically states "Illinois jeweled barrel" even though the movement is unmarked. This photo is a reference from p. 84, left-hand column, all the way at the bottom (Black filled engraving, not gold-filled).

Conversely, the ad on p. 194 states "Hunting and Open Face" which we know is not true. Perhaps the person setting the copy for this ad just did a "cut-and-paste" from another ad, and mistakenly put in the comment about the jeweled barrel.

Page 184 is marked as from a 1914 advertisement (although Roy didn't keep the best of records on his clippings). By 1914 the 18S 19J Bunn models were nearing the end of their time, and by then all of them DID have the marked jeweled barrel.

It is possible that, given the overlap between this watch (S/N 2019336 from early 1909) and the beginning of those marked "jeweled barrel" (1908), there might have been some retro-fitting with jeweled barrels, but without the engraving to indicate it.

Russ

[John Pavlik]

As long as we are on 19 jewel Bunn's, would any one have a comment on the originality of this dial on Bunn # 2037901.. It appears exactly as the one pictured above..

[terry hall]

I would call it 'interesting'..... :)

what does back of dial look like?

[Kent]

...
The original dial as fitted was badly damaged. However I think the "new" dial is too early for this model ? Can anyone confirm from the photos please ?
... Hudd

Hudd:

I wouldn't worry about the style of the dial being correct for the movement. The data base that Ed and I maintain has records of many. many watches bearing higher (and lower) serial numbers having the same style of dial.

Enjoy,

[John Pavlik]

Terry,

I haven't had it off since it was serviced it a long time ago..It is a single sunk, enamel, with typical Illinois dial construction..you can see the brass on the edge profile. 3 feet..and the solidered seconds bit is done well..If you are unsure of it's manufacture I can take it off for you and take a picture..I was wondering if it is period correct, not so much as to if it was a reproduction.. I did not think it had anything about it that would make me think that when it is was off, but by no means do I know alot about dials..

[terry hall]

john,
the single sunk feature is the most 'interesting' to me...

i have seen some 18s lower grade movements with a single sunk dial, but not numerical...

fred may chime in here shortly with an opinion....

[bernie levine]

Hi Hud,

From your Bunn 19 J, serial 2019336 description I question if your Bunn
was equipped with a jeweled barrel . Ref Ill vol 2 page 84 19 jewel
Bunn serial numbers 2019,001-2128,500. (1908-1909).

[bernie levine]

Hi Hud,

From your Bunn 19 J, serial 2019336 description I question if your Bunn
was equipped with a jeweled barrel . Ref Ill vol 2 page 84 19 jewel
Bunn serial numbers 2019,001-2128,500. (1908-1909).




Ad in The Jewerlers Circular Oct 13, 1910 ,
_________


THE ILLINOIS JEWELED BARREL
======================
One of our late achievemtns. The best friction-reducing
barrel ever invented. Used exlusively in the

BUNN SPECIAL, 23 JEWELS
SANGAMO, 23 JEWELS
BUNN, 19 JEWELS

ILLUSTRATION "CUT AWAY" JEWELED B ARREL.

[bernie levine]

Having recently bought a 19J Bunn ( # 2019336 ) I've carefully dismantled ready for a clean and repair. However, this is the first time I've come across a jewelled barrel in the flesh so to speak.

I removed the barrel cap OK and assumed the arbour would just push out as with a non jewelled barrel. It wouldn't. Can someone in the know explain how I go about removing the arbour from the barrel ? It doesn't seem to want to unscrew or push out, and I don't want to do any damage to the lower arbour jewel especially as I found a hard light pink flake stuck to the bottom of the barrel on disassembly. A part of a damaged barrel arbour jewel ?

If the lower barrel arbour jewel is in need of replacement, can someone please advise the jewel size I would need as a replacement ? If I knew the size I could possibly find a Seitz replacement from a recently acquired jewel collection. It has over 650 jewels with a lot of large ones ( up to 100/200 ).

Hudd

[bernie levine]

Hi Hudd,

I have a Bunn 18 size model 6 19 jewel ser#2128254 (1908). The movement is not marked jeweled barrel. The escape wheel does not have
cap jewels.
I wonder if all the 19J Bunn model 6 18 size marked 19J Jewels
but NOT MARKED JEWELED BARREL WERE EQUIPPED
with a jeweled barrel?

[HUDD]

Hi Hud,

From your Bunn 19 J, serial 2019336 description I question if your Bunn
was equipped with a jeweled barrel . Ref Ill vol 2 page 84 19 jewel
Bunn serial numbers 2019,001-2128,500. (1908-1909).




Ad in The Jewerlers Circular Oct 13, 1910 ,
_________


THE ILLINOIS JEWELED BARREL
======================
One of our late achievemtns. The best friction-reducing
barrel ever invented. Used exlusively in the

BUNN SPECIAL, 23 JEWELS
SANGAMO, 23 JEWELS
BUNN, 19 JEWELS

ILLUSTRATION "CUT AWAY" JEWELED B ARREL.

Hi Bernie

Yes, definitely a jewelled barrel. The barrel cap jewel is easily seen when removed as is the boss for the barrel jewel.

Any chance you could post a scan of the cutaway section you mentioned ?

Hudd

[HUDD]

...
The original dial as fitted was badly damaged. However I think the "new" dial is too early for this model ? Can anyone confirm from the photos please ?
... Hudd

Hudd:

I wouldn't worry about the style of the dial being correct for the movement. The data base that Ed and I maintain has records of many. many watches bearing higher (and lower) serial numbers having the same style of dial.

Enjoy,

[HUDD]

Hi Kent

Thanks for your reassurances. It does look great, and after servicing and oiling it runs great too.

The Illinois dials ( gothic patterns especially ), and sunburst movement damasceening are the most beautiful of all 18s American pocket watches to my mind, followed by some of the 18s Hamilton range and some Waltham 1883 Crescent St. Just my opinion you understand.

Hudd

[HUDD]

It seems to be a thing that Illinois 18s dials seem to suffer
damage much more easilly than other contemporary manufacturers ?
Is this opinion shared ?

Hudd

My experience with Seth Thomas (Model 5's at least)
has led me to expect damage as a regular 'feature',
but I haven't played with enough Illinois to make the
necessary comparison.

Possibly related... is the incidence of identifiable
*replacement* dials higher on certain Illinois 18-s
models than on others?

Is evidence of damage or replacement on RR examples
more likely (from different/heavier patterns of usage)?

(Maybe this topic-tangent deserves its own thread?)



Hi LLoyd

I've been looking at the Illinois 18s Bunn adverts on the Ebay site for over 4yrs now and these seem to be the ones suffering most dial damage. Where people have tried to remove dials by prising them off, then the type of damage is quite obvious, as is the type of damage emanating from the position of the setting lever through long term use.

However, with the Bunn gothic dials, and for that matter the later 18s Illinois 17j offerings up to the 1920's, I can't see how the damage has occurred through misuse. Examples being chips missing where the inner sunk portion meets the sunken seconds circle and chips around the joint between inner sunk circle and outer track. Also random missing sections of the outer track.

If you look at Waltham, Hampden and in general Hamilton dials of the same age and presumably the same levels of usage, these seem to fare much better, hairline cracks excluded.

My conclusion is that whichever manufacturer produced the Illinois dials, they were produce either with a thinner, and therefore more flexible copper base, and / or the porcelain mix was to a different specification than other manufacrurers ?

Hudd