Swiss Pocket watch

[john48]

I am brand new to message board so Please bare with me! Could someone provide me with any info on the maker of this watch. The movement and the dial are both signed T. Kirkpatrick. Thanks John

[Dr. Jon]

The name is Thomas Kirkpatrick. He was a very high end jeweler in New York City. I believe he was the official jeweler to the Tweed ring.

This firm did not make the watch but did import it and fitted it to its original gold case.

The watch has almost certainly been recased from a gold case.

The remaining movement is very fine. It looks to be 20 jewels and to have a very fine escape wheel, a particular favorite of mine.

It has a double sunk dial, very common in high grade American made watches but unusual in Swiss watches.

I have another Kirkpatrick watch but enough different that I don't think its is by the same maker.

The original maker is very hard to determine. I can rule out Patek Philippe,Vacheron and Constantin, Internationasl Watch COmpany, and Audemars Piguet.

The serial number is too low for a Longines and too high and too different in layout for a C H Meylan. That leaves Badollet (Mostly because I don't know enough about them to make a judgement) and Agassiz who used a snail regulator like yours.

There are a lot of forgotten very high end makers from Switzerland who could have made this watch movement. This is a real pity since it is such a fine one.

[john48]

Dr. Jon Thank you for your useful info on this watch. I knew this type regulator was used by several different swiss makers and thought it to be of fine quality and unfortunately recased. Thanks, John

[Ethan Lipsig]

Here are pictures of an almost identical movement I have, also marked T. Kirkpatrick. It is in a Wadsworth 20-year case. The movement is a fairly common Swiss movement used in American private label watches. I believe one is currently up for auction on eBay, for example. I have never been able to identify the maker.

[LloydB]

This movement type (or one almost identical) has come
up previously. Generally, IIRC, the 'lean' has been toward
V&C as the maker. V&C made a contract movement for
BALL that shares a strong family resemblance:

(EA 160 in Ehrhardt & Meggers' "Beginning to End"

which diagram is, I believe, the hunter version. I own one
of these (hunter, LS) marked Wells & Gunde on the dial
and movement (New Haven Jeweler, Private Label). I've
seen others marked for other private jewelers.

Just wondering what might specifically argue against V&C
as the maker for the movements shown in this thread?

[Nachtmotte]

It could be also quite an AGASSIZ. See here the similarities:

http://faszination-uhrwerk.argby.com/Uhren/Agassiz/Agassiz-Kaliber/Taschenuhrwerke/agassiz-nr115085a.jpg

It shows No.115085, dimension with 43mm. What do you think gentlemens?
Best regards
Tony

________________________
http://faszination-uhrwerk.argby.com

[Luca]

After having had a few of these and comparing I'd tend to agree with Tony. Agassiz is a likely candidate.

Luca

[john48]

:thumb: Thanks to everyone for your help and information concerning this watch! I guess my other question would be. Was this movement most definately in a solid gold case at one time or, being sold from an american jeweler might the watch be cased in what the customer wanted, or could afford. (spending his money on the movement.)

[Dr. Jon]

Reasons to think these are not by Vacheron

1) Serial Numbers are too low for period
2) Vacheron did not use that regulator to my knowledge
3) Mine has a canister dial and these look like they have them too, Vacheron did not use them (to my knowledge)

The dial on mine is very un Vacheron like. My dial has the movement number engraved on teh edge. The setting mechanism is set up such that it can only be set up in the case with dial off. The dial has to be pressed on after the setting springs are arranged around the stem. I doubt Vacheron would have done something like this.

Also Vacheron usually signed their movements under the dial even when they made them under anether name and added digits to the serial number. Mine has no such signature.

None of these are absolute and house like Vacheron would do a lot of unusual specials. Mine has a whip lash regulator and wolf's tooth wheels but is in the same serial number range. There are enough of these that have surface that Kirkpatrick must have bought a lot from the maker.

[LloydB]

Reasons to think these are not by Vacheron

1) Serial Numbers are too low for period
2) Vacheron did not use that regulator to my knowledge
3) Mine has a canister dial and these look like they have them too, Vacheron did not use them (to my knowledge)

The dial on mine is very un Vacheron like. My dial has the movement number engraved on teh edge. The setting mechanism is set up such that it can only be set up in the case with dial off. The dial has to be pressed on after the setting springs are arranged around the stem. I doubt Vacheron would have done something like this.

Also Vacheron usually signed their movements under the dial even when they made them under anether name and added digits to the serial number. Mine has no such signature.

None of these are absolute and house like Vacheron would do a lot of unusual specials. Mine has a whip lash regulator and wolf's tooth wheels but is in the same serial number range. There are enough of these that have surface that Kirkpatrick must have bought a lot from the maker.


Ok, then and thanks.... I'll happily "lean" in the Agassiz direction (i)

Is there anything at all about these movements that might 'clinch' the ID?

[Dr. Jon]

The only ways to really clinch an ID are a signature under the dial or paper from a maker, either from them or a library.

Aubert has written three books on Swiss makers from the Neuchatel area and there is a new Longines book that shows all of their movements. I have made some ID's with these books. The Longines book is newly published and a great buy considering the heft and depth of the book.

The Aubert books are in French and only slightly better organized than the Ehrhardt books. My French is very weak but I have made a one possible ID with it.

I suspect the Kirkpatrick movements in this thread began as Alpina ebauches which were used by many makers. Without an explicit signature, the details of finish are all that is available.

At one time I thought Audemars Piguet had made them, but the serial numbers are way wrong, Audemars did not answer my inquiry and a close look showed that Audemars dial side cap jewels differ from my example.

Multiple examples help. The three I know of have similar serial numbers indicating they are from the same finisher. The two shown here have an apparently useless projection from the balance cock towards the center wheel. I suspect this is to assist in prying up the balance cock with minimal stress on the balance pivots. I think these are ugly but they were frequently used by Agassiz, another indicator. Mine movement does not have these but I had gotten to Agassiz on it too. Until I saw these, my ID was mostly by elimination.

Agassiz through Wittnauer, their New York Distributer, brought a lot of very fine, just below top grade watches into the US as private labels so its is the safest default ID.

This kind of stuff is a lot of fun if you really love watches and a monumental pain to those who just want an ID to jack up the "value".

[Luca]

Lovely dial by the way. This more than likely came in a solid gold case. Here is a shot of a similar watch I just picked up - in a gold case.

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/holz.jpg

[LloydB]

Thanks for the clear answer, the Longines book sounds
interesting, could you provide the ISBN? or other details
(publisher or...? )

I must be in the first category -- love watches, but
seem only to keep acquiring, have yet to let one go.

[Luca]

LloydB,

When you do decide to part with your watches - let me know - I'm more than willing to help out. :thumb:

Luca

[Dr. Jon]

Here is a URL of a seller of the book

http://www.booksimonin.ch/produits.asp?rechercher=longines&Submit=Search Longines book

The book is

Patrick Linder - At the Heart of an Industrial Vocation - Longines warch movements (1832-2007) - tradition, know-how, innovation.
623 pages Editions : 2007

The book is published by and highly subsidized by Longines.

The NAWCC Library has a copy avaialbe for loan. It is very large and beautiful book. Its size and weight make the shipping cost high.