Seeking french verge

[glr1109]

I have a french portico clock. Unfortunately...somewhere along the line the verge assy, and the part that holds the verge from the back had been replaced.

I do have the clock running, however to set in beat is unusually hazardous to the teeth on the escape wheel...because it (imo) has the wrong verge.
The first photo is what I have now:

http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/c790vWhtskK5E99NOza1XDIc0BVwNpv-Adie_l.jpg

This second photo is what I beleive it should look like(the verge)

http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/c790vWhtskK5E99NOza1XDIc0K8d96776HtA_l.jpg


Is there anyone with junker french clocks around that I could buy parts from?

thanks
greg

[shutterbug]

Yes, what you have does look wrong. Here's the problem :) - it looks like you need a dead-beat verge. It would have specific angles to impulse properly, and it's unlikely that you'd find the right one the first time. I think you may need to have one made for the clock. Could be a little pricey but it won't hurt too bad :)

[deloid]

I agree with shutterbug in that making one will likely be easier. Do you want to make one on your own and document the progress on this thread? If so, PM me and I can give you references and guide you through the process on the side while you map your results here.

[Ralph]

It is a recoil escapement not a deadbeat and always was.

Why do you say it is wrong? It looks like a normal French verge.


Ralph

[Richmccarty]

Greg-
I can make new pallets if you'd like. Send me a PM

Rich McCarty, GradBHI & West Dean College
http://www.restoredclocks.com

PS - Not to be pendantic, but what you are seeking is new set of pallets, not a verge. A verge is part of a verge and crownwheel escapement.

[Ralph]

PS - Not to be pendantic, but what you are seeking is new set of pallets, not a verge. A verge is part of a verge and crownwheel escapement.

I agree, but it's pretty much the accepted vernacular in the USA.

Some would say it's an anchor escapement with pallets being a part of it. ;)


Ralph

[shutterbug]

It is a recoil escapement not a deadbeat and always was.

Why do you say it is wrong? It looks like a normal French verge.


Ralph

Are you sure? In the picture it looks like the exit pallet is hard against the tooth and appeared to be rotating clockwise (points toward rotation). If that's the way it's rotating, then it's definitely not a recoil (although it does have a recoil verge at this time). If it's rotating the other way, I misread the photo :) The EW also has a dead beat look (long slender teeth). Maybe Greg can clear this up for us :)

[Richmccarty]

The top picture is of a drum escapement - The entry pallet (left) is a radial dead locking face and the exit pallet is a flat recoil type. This is a 'half dead beat' although there is NO impulse on the entry pallet and no dead beat action on the exit pallet

The bottom picture is a standard French recoil escapement with the entry pallet on the right.

How are you trying to set the clock in beat? Overswinging the pendulum only works on Brocot escapements with friction crutches.

I've mentioned this before, but I think every clockmaker should have a copy of Gazeley's Clock and Watch Escapements.

Rich McCarty, GradBHI & West Dean College
http://www.restoredclocks.com

[glr1109]

The escape wheel turns counter clock wise as shown. Below is a photo of the verge/pallet that is on the movement now...well not now, but was:

http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/c790vWhtskK5E99NOza1XDIc0J-ffrPqVO8o_l.jpg

While attempting to place in beat, by moveing the suspension holder to one side or the other(it is a friction fit)....this verge/pallet bends the teeth mostly on the left side.

I straightened the teeth with a webster...and even then could not get an even beat....or even close. The micrometer would jump from(for example) +0 to -20 to +5. Even with this...it does keep good time.

I've straightened the teeth on a couple of different verges/pallets with this tool...a sessions and a french one just like this but with a verge/pallet which looks like the second photo. I strongly feel that the second photo verge/pallet is a correct one.

greg

[Ralph]

Ahhhh,,,, I was thinking the other achor was the anchor on the clock. Yes, that anchor does not look right or original.

Ralph

[deloid]

That has an appearance more consistent with a Germanic style (pallets not the mvt).

[Scottie-TX]

"PENDANTIC" is someone who's a swinger.
PEDANTIC is being DIDACTIC.
I don't wanna be pedantic needer, but your escapement is very probably a anchor type recoil escapement and nearly as I can tell NEITHER anchor would fit your clock. I have no idea what in 'ell that first one is and the second looks like it is for a half deadbeat, the exit pallet having a dead face but no impulse.
. . . . . . . . . . . and in EDITing,
one should NEVER allow the anchor to prise against the teeth while adjusting beat. Anchor should be grasped with one hand and crutch rotated with other.

[Scottie-TX]

Studying some more for your benefit, that second anchor very probably is what you need. Here I have sketched the anchor in a french roulant movement here: The second picture is not good but you can certainly see an anchor exactly like it on this British skeleton - another anchor type recoil.

[glr1109]

Both photos are roulant movements, both movements have the same style escape wheels. This one has 34 teeth the other 40.

Scotty...your drawing looks like the verge/pallet/anchor in my second photo.

Deloid and Richmccarty..
The board will not let me pm you.


greg


ps. Below is a photo of the movement in question:

http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/c790vWhtskK5E99NOza1XDIc0MVUECx0BSp-_l.jpg

[LaBounty]

Hey Greg-

I believe your anchor is correct. The recoil anchor has taken on many different forms over the years and the French "traditional" style is one which is familiar while yours is less so. I have several examples of this style of anchor that I know are original. Here's a photo to compare...

Note: The middle anchor came from an Austrian silk thread movement.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/2065514675_db59fb2be7_o.png

Hope that helps!

[Mike Phelan]

Everyone.

This is not a dead-beat escapement - the escape wheel must be rotating the same way as the centre wheel (!) i.e. clockwise, but that should not need explaining, should it?

Therefore, the escape wheel teeth are facing away; they look like a perfectly normal tooth shape for one of these clocks.

It does look like the pallets have been replaced with one from a tic-tac movement, and I would guess that the originals were replaced by a gorilla and he/she/it cracked them by hammering them on to toe arbor. Pallets on these are glass-hard and take no prisoners.

It always confused me when US folks spoke about verges on non-verge escapements , but I soon got used to it!

HTH, or not, as the case may be. :cool:

[glr1109]

Lazy quote: "This is not a dead-beat escapement - the escape wheel must be rotating the same way as the centre wheel (!) i.e. clockwise, but that should not need explaining, should it?"

Apparently...Remember, your "speaking" to a man who has to write in large letters on the refrigerator door board: TRASH = TUES, TRASH TOMORROW, etc.:(

I will from now on call it a pallet!:)

The escape wheel as shown is turning counter clock wise. If shown from the "Front" it would be rotating clockwise. Is this what you mean?

greg:%

[Mike Phelan]

You do that as well, Greg? We have a big fridge for that reason ....

That is what I meant - clockwise from the front, as the centre wheel must do.

AFAIK you folks always call the (UK) pallets a verge, as I only found about a few years ago.

A pallet (here) is half of a a pair of pallets - in a clock, or the wooden thing that a fork-lift truck lifts! ;)

[glr1109]

Lazy Quote:
"A pallet (here) is half of a a pair of pallets - in a clock"

That was my understanding and that as a whole...instead of "a pallets" it would be called a verge.???

greg


I'm so confused! :(

[glr1109]

Anyway, if it has the correct pallets/verge/anchor...why does it not have an even beat???
greg

[Mike Phelan]

True, in USA. Here in UK, a verge is an escapement type or the pallet arbor on one of these.

I believe it was so called because of the supposed similarity to the staff that a verger (church official) carried.
Without research I don't know when the term was first used or if it was when clocks were first made here: they all had verge escapements then.

[Mike Phelan]

Greg
If you mean that the drops are unequal, then the pallets are wrong or reversed on the staff; they cannot be bent like strip pallets.
Your first idea about them being swapped is probably correct.

[LaBounty]

This may help, if you can read French :)...

(Chavigny, Richard. "Les Brocot". Editions Antoine Simonin, 1991. pg. 114)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2217/2066151109_9f3089f8a2_o.jpg

[glr1109]

Thanks... I do not speak french. However I do see that this pallet fits this type of escape wheel.

greg

[Cactus50]

Anyway, if it has the correct pallets/verge/anchor...why does it not have an even beat???
greg

The escape wheel teeth not being equal in length will cause the condition you describe. You straightened the teeth with your "webster", now you need to "top them off" by rotating the escape wheel in your lathe and using a graver or file to make the teeth the same length and the circumference round.

[Scottie-TX]

AH!
My HERO to th' rescue again!
Thanks LAB. You let me struggle before your corrected me. I like struggling. Only exercise I get beside jogging my memory.
And yeah; What C50 said.
Whenever movement runs in and out of beat, you can go STRAIGHT to the Escape Wheel and look for a problem; A tooth problem, bent pivot perhaps, not concentric, lateral runout, etc. To my ear, a movement running in and out of beat is very painful to hear.

[glr1109]

Took Cactus50's advice...still runs in and out...but, very much less so. -+0, -5,-3,+2, etc.

I really had a hard time(emotionally) doing this...the teeth are so thin, but it worked. However, I don't dare try taking them down lower.

If I have more problems with it, maybe another stent on the webster? I don't know...scarry!
greg

[Scottie-TX]

Another STINT may be necessary but unless there is arterial blockage, a STENT won't help this EW much.

[glr1109]

Thanks for the corrections Scottie! As if there haven't been enough already in this tread!

greg...I'm sooo connfuuuused!

http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/c790vWhtskK5E99NOza1XDIc0JcdfGBUPaAQ_l.jpg

[Mike Phelan]

Another STINT may be necessary but unless there is arterial blockage, a STENT won't help this EW much.

He did say it was scarry, Scottie, so it might be OK. ;)

[glr1109]

alright: Stint, scary, anchor, pallets, verge

anymore? Bring it on, man!

[glr1109]

LOL

[Mike Phelan]

Stint, scary, anchor, pallets, verge


Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, Peter Gurney, Peter Davy, Dan'l Whiddon, Harry Hawke, Old Uncle Tom Cobley an' all.

I really must get some work done! :o

[glr1109]

You've got me there!
greg

[Mike Phelan]

English West Country folk song, Greg.
here (http://www.spreyton.org.uk/tom_cobley.htm) or have a google for "Widecombe fair" to see its location.

[Cactus50]

Gregg: Sounds like you did well, but if you used a file and just gently applied it to the EW you trimmed all of the teeth some and you get the result you have. If you use your tool rest so that it supports the file and then lower the file (as in pivoting it on tool rest) until it just begins to touch the tops of the longest teeth you can even the length out and should get a perfectly concentric EW that will provide good service. Normally we are talking about fractions of a millimeter of material being removed.

[glr1109]

Cactus 50..is that something like "Hawaii 50"?

Anyway, I was too ascared to use a file...I used instede an emory board...but followed the same procedure.

I'm waiting Scottie...

Neat little poem...tuit, I'll have to look further into it after I get to feeling better.

greg

[Cactus50]

No Hawaii 50, was just the first password I used. I was working with cacti for my dissertation and was 50 years old at the time. And it is something I can remember. by the way, emory boards work but may not cut the teeth perfectly flat. :?|

[Mike Phelan]

Assuming 'emory' (USA) is 'emery' (UK) - a mixture of aluminium oxide and various other impure minerals, I would not use this on brass at all, in case particles of it are embedded in the softer metal.

I have used a pivot file on the rare occasions when the tips of an escape wheel have been damaged by someone, but doing any of this needs extreme caution. :o

[glr1109]

Those who jump off a Paris bridge are in Seine

You people are driving me there!!!!!:bang:

(Thanks for the advice! I have another escapewheel to do someday will try it on that one)

greg

[Mike Phelan]

Don't worry, Greg, anyone who repairs clocks is the same - my sanity went out decades ago!

If you get totally confuffled with one of these clocks, you can always post it to me - I know them well.

I hope that you don't find many escape wheels with bent teeth - it is a rarity here unless some real gorillas have been at it. :o