Hamilton Ball Serial Number Question

[DennyI]

Hello,

I looked at a collection of 17 railroad watches yesterday that I'm considering purchasing.

The serial number I wrote down for a Ball watch is 28578. Its a Hamilton Ball 999B, adjusted 6 postions.

Is that a valid serial number? Or is it likely I wrote it down wrong? If it is a valid number, what year would it be from?

I'm adding this picture of the watch. Unfortunately its a small photo.
http://www.iowatelecom.net/~dliwen/ball.jpg

I also found this website of serial numbers but again, not sure that the case on the watch would match the years on this site if I wrote it down correctly. Ball Serial Numbers - Click Here (http://www.antiquewatchworld.com/watch/html/serials.html#bham)

Thanks,
Denny

[rrstd]

Denny,

Serial number 29578 should be an 18 size, 17J, Hamilton - Ball, 999D.

If the watch pictured is infact a Hamilton Ball, I suspect that the actual serial number may be 2B578. This serial number would be a 16 size, 21J, 999B.

If this is the case, the watch is somewhat more desirable than most 999B's which normally have serial numbers starting with "1B". The "2B" numbers were actually slated for 23J Ball's. No orders were received however, and the plates were finished into 21J 999B Ball's and a small number of 950B Hamilton's.

It is also possible that you are missing a digit. In this case, the watch could also be either a Hamilton or a Waltham Ball. A picture or scan of the movement would tell us for sure.

Rhett

[Kent]

Denny:

If it is a 999B. adjusted to 6 positions, then rrstd is correct in thinking that you may have mis-read the serial number and that it is 2B598. That being so, it was sold by Hamilton sometime between Novemeber 1943 abd March 1944. It's a very nice find!

[DennyI]

Rhett and Kent,

Thanks to you both for the information. I had wondered if perhaps the 8 was actually a B and I had read it wrong but I couldn't find anything to go with the 2 in front of it in the book and information I have. Given your input I think it must have been 2B578. It is a 16 size watch and very nice.

Now I'm wondering how nice of a find it actually is. :o

Thanks again,
Denny

PS Rhett
Do you still attend the Great Plains chapter meetings? I haven't attend for approx. a year but plan to return and rejoin soon.

[rrstd]

Hi Denny,

I am still a member of the Great Plains chapter, but my attendance has been somewhat hit and miss (unfortunately more miss than hit). The meetings are about a 2 hour drive and something else always seems to be going on.

Let me know when you plan to attend and I'll try to make it over. I believe the chapter is also planning a regional to be held next spring.

Rhett

[Kent]

Denny:

Only 700 999Bs were built bearing 2B series serial numbers, 2B001 - 2B700. In case you're wondering what happened to the rest of the 2B series serial numbers, 2B701 - 2B800 became Hamilton 950Bs and no other watches were assigned serial numbers in that series.

Although Rhett has mentioned story about those serial numbers that has been floating around for years, I'm not certain that there is documentation for it. The rest of the story is that Hamilton made up the pillar plates, stamping them with the serial numbers, in anticipation of receiving an order from Ball that never arrived. The same pillar plate is usable on the 950B, 992B, 999B, 3992B, 4992B and perhaps some others. So, the plates were used for the 999Bs and the 950Bs.

[crsides]

a 950b in the 2b700 range.

[Kent]

Can you bring to the chapter meeting next weekend so we can photograph it for the column?

[rrstd]

Kent,

I don't know of any "official" Hamilton document that chronicals these "2B" watches.

Art however, included this information in a presentation he made at the Pacific Northwest Regional a few years ago. As you know, Art spent quite a bit of time visiting Lancaster and interviewing employees from the factory. One of the people he got to know quite well was Ernie Dresher (sp?), who I believe was the lead engineer on the 992B program.

We also know of atleast two "prototype" 23J Ball's made from the 992B design platform. One is a bridge (998B) style movement, while the other is of the 3/4 plate (999B) style. These watches confirm that a 23J Ball was atleast considered.

Rhett

[Kent]

Rhett:

I heard this story from a friend of Art's who, at the time - about 10 years ago, told me that Art really wan't sure about it and please don't repeat the story. Other than share it with Ed, I haven't mentioned it until after your post above.

New information keeps coming to light. This is the first I've heard of the two prototype 23-jewel Balls on the 992B platform. But then, I'm not surprised. It wasn't that long ago that I saw a partial, 17-jewel, 16-size Rcokford-Ball prototype.

Thanks for the info,

[rrstd]

What we know for sure is that the "2B" serial numbered 999B's were produced less than a year after the start of production of the "1B" serial numbers. We also know that a significant amount of the total production of "1B" serial numbers were produced after the "2B's".

With this in mind, it makes sense to me that Hamilton may have been using up stock of plates originally earmarked for another model. This, coupled with the fact that the "1B" serial numbers were exclusively used for the 999B's would lead me to believe that the "2B" serial range was initially meant for a seperate grade for Ball.

It should also be noted that Hamilton did something very similar with leftover 4992B plates, completing them as 992B's towards the end of production in Lancaster.

Until information is found to confirm or deny this story, I have to believe it to be the most likely explanation. Having said this, I would definately be open to any other thoughts or explanations?

[Fred Hansen]

Kent -

Check the top right corner of page 95 of Ehrhardt's 1979 Indicator for a photo of a 23J Ball with this plate design. The watch has no serial number and is marked with the model number 998B.

Fred

[terry hall]

a few 2B prefix 950B movements have been documented...( i have 2b711) as with the 999b grade

If there had been more info from the Halligan writings, I feel it may have surfaced by now, as Don has been very giving in making the info from the Ravel documents known a related subject shows.

I am in the camp that gives the 'non accepted' grade as the reason...

and Hamilton just wanted to trick us collectors up :wink: :clap:

[Kent]

Kent -

Check the top right corner of page 95 of Ehrhardt's 1979 Indicator for a photo of a 23J Ball with this plate design. The watch has no serial number and is marked with the model number 998B.

Fred

Yep, thanks Fred! I'm sure I noticed it years ago, I must have forgotten about it - Wow - I wonder what else I've fogotten about. Hummmmmmmm........

I hope you guys don't think that I doubt the story. I believed that it was highly likely from the start (it was when we were researching WWII era railroad standard watches when I came across the story, and that article appeared in December 1997). I was/am merely pointing out that, without documentation, it is a highly likely supposition, but supposition nevertheless.

[DennyI]

Got the watch tonight. Thought I'd share a scan of the movement.

Denny

[Kent]

Nice!

[rrstd]

Denny,

Looks to be in pretty good condition. Nice find.

Rhett

[DennyI]

Thanks. Actually the watch looks better than the scan shows. The Ball case even has some of the gold-filled stamp remaining on the bottom edge. He had collected some pretty nice watches. A recently retired RR worker.

[Don Dahlberg]

I was cleaning our a drawer and came across a copy of a Hamilton Product Specification for model 998B 16 size watch movement part number 38000. I don't remember sharing this before, but then again, I forget lots of things these days.

Date of Original issue 12-8-39, Revised 12-12-49 and retyped 8-8-52.

"Note A - Model 998B movements, part #38000, serially numbered 2B001 to 2B700 inclusive, were converted to model 999B movements, part #38001, in accordance with the specification for that model except that the identifying characteristic of the serial numbers was not changed to '1B' (one B).

Similarly, model 998B movements, serially numbered 2B701 to 2B800, inclusive, were converted to model 950B movements, part #34000, in accordance with the specification for that model except that the identifying characteristic of the serial numbers was not changed to 'S'."

It then describes using an alternate barrel assembly for the 998B

[crsides]

Thanks for the information Don. Nice find and it is much appreciated. Nothing like hard facts.

Can someone speak to the 2B801-2B1000 numbers. There was some information that these numbers were also finished as 950b's.

Has anyone seen/recorded a 950b in this range?


Thanks

Charlie

[cons14]

Here's another Ball Hamilton 999B marked 2B499.