Hermle 340 - 020 out of beat

[Scottie-TX]

Hepp me out here before I commit a BONGer-ism. You know I haven't a clue about these stoopid balance deals. Don't even like 'em. What kinda clock don't have a pendalum?
It's outta beat. I don't see one of them split collet deals to set the beat. You readily see the fork is hitting the left banking pin and has gobs of clearance to the other. So whaddya bend now? (TNX)

[Jeff C]

Scottie,

Let me try.. The vertical roller pins need to rest in the middle of the pallet fork will viewing from the rear. The key is while at rest. Adjusted on this type I believe would be done by turning the hairspring collet. If the one in your picture is at rest then the collet needs to be turned counter clockwise. Sometimes I've had to gently hold the fork vertical in order to determine the exact centering of the roller pins. You could also remove the balance and do the same, using the base of the unit for your guide.

[shutterbug]

I don't see the spring :) Some movements have an adjusting screw at the top that you can turn and just "hear" it come into beat. See if your's does. If there is not split collet, I expect the manufacturer devised a different way to accomplish the setting.

[Scottie-TX]

Please stand (or sit) by while I re-adjust my magna-visor and investigate the elusive beat thingy;
Meanwhile; Anybody notice the "Love Is" strip in the gnuspaper today?

[Jeff C]

Wadja find out Scottie?

[Scottie-TX]

Well; It IS at rest JEFF, but only because I MADE it rest there to show how the fork hits the left banking pin.
HowEVER: I did find the collet where you'd expect - holding the spring and was able to adjust it. However (again) the only adjustment I could accomplish was, "out of beat" or "more out of beat". The problem here is that fork hitting that banking pin. When collet adjustment SHOULD bring it into beat, the fork hits the banking pin and further collet adjustment is to no avail. So I removed the dogleg retainer. Guess what? You guessed it! A soldered blodge. Someone cut the bearing off the movement plate and soldered it to the retainer to create adjustment for lock of the fork. That isn't the problem tho. I am now firmly convinced the problem is the fork and that the fork arm needs moved.
My thinking is, regardless of the position of the balance wheel, the fork has a separate, independent relationship to the EW. Right now that relationship is such that the fork must hit the banking pin to unlock. In fact it should not. My thinking is the fork should be able to unlock BOTH teeth within the space of the banking pins without hitting either. Moving the fork on it's arbor would accomplish nothing. I believe the fork may need bent to the right with respect to the pallet pins. I MAY have another new fork. I will try to find it first.
(EDIT)
Waitaminnit! Wait A minute. That blodge COULD be my problem. If the bushing was moved left or right of it's original location - it would change the beat by moving it laterally from the EW. The fork doesn't look like it was previously bent but I'll bet bending it now will fix it.

[doc_fields]

I think you have a nomination for the clockmaker's hall of "bodge" !!! :wink: I'll say it's innovative, though!.......doc

[Jeff C]

Hey Scottie, don't no whether this is an experimental movement or like but you could change out that rear plate and be right in business :thumb:

I was curious though, at the point of break and "repair" was it not close?

Here's one with the fork vertical and pins in the similar position as yours: :?|

Note the differences.

[Scottie-TX]

I was curious though, at the point of break and "repair" was it not close?

Here's one with the fork vertical and pins in the similar position as yours: :?|

Note the differences.
Don't understand question, "was it not close?".
Certainly it is an experimental movement NOW. Someone experimented with it and not too gracefully.
Now, "Note the differences". I'll try to note the differences but what differences do you note, meanwhile.
Further: I won't proceed apace with this. There is no hurry and I wanna do it right. I am currently considering relocating the bushing to that retainer/cover thing, using your example to transfer by scale , it's proper location.
"Replace the plate". Yeah. Right! Sure wish I had that luxury.
Thanks for the picture and counsel!

[Scottie-TX]

What is the purpose of that retainer anyway - to limit endplay in the fork?

[bangster]

You needs to put some beat oil on it. That'll fix it right up.

bangster

[doc_fields]

I believe it is there to keep dust and foreign particles out of the pivot area. The inside or other end is protected by the shoulder of the arbor. As small as the pivot is, a little dust in the oil would grind it soon to be of no use. I would re-bush the hole in the plate, or I could send you a used one to play with..................doc

[Scottie-TX]

Having studied the two very intently JEFF, it's certainly easy to see a vast difference, but hard to take to account relative positions since yours appears to be near exit lock and mine is solidly locked on entrance. I believe I'll reinstall mine now, peer down from the top and check fork alignment between the plates. I bet bushing needs moved to the right.

[Jeff C]

I bet bushing needs moved to the right.

How about loosening the dust cover and turning it upward slightly then snugging it back down :?| Besides moving upward it will also slightly move it to the right being that its pointed downward to the right.

[Scottie-TX]

DANG!
These things 'bout as much fun as a root canal.
If it didn't belong to a sweet widow lady . . . .
So I move the bushing to the right. Now sounds pretty much in beat, fork hits BOTH banking pins, but now have a load somewhere. Now balance assy. unable to sustain oscillations.
About the fork and banking pins tho; I thought the fork striking the left one was a problem. Now I believe fork is supposed to hit the banking pins, but BOTH of them.
Endshake of fork is not a load problem but could be a bushing problem due to the new fork arbor orientation.

[PaulFaf]

Scottie

That looks like an aftermarket ballance. The last one I worked on came out working great. First I gave the fork a little breathing room by moving it outward ever so slightly. ballance pins should miss the left or short fork ( the pins must swing in a bigger arc than stock.)

Like Jeff was saying take the ballance out if your pins at rest stop between the lower forks great. = for now then work on speed

hope this helps.

[Chris Radano]

post # 6748 of 6763

Please stand (or sit) by while I re-adjust my magna-visor and investigate the elusive beat thingy;
Meanwhile; Anybody notice the "Love Is" strip in the gnuspaper today?





Ha Ha. Copyright 2007? Looks more like 1977.

[TonyR]

Hi,

I know, having had lots, that great learning opportunities can flow through intense horological pain but, hey Scottie, why not just say the hell with it and put in a new balance?

Regards,


TonyR.

[Grandpa]

Hi Scottie, and my other friends,
I have not been around latly, been camping. Just thought I'd check in and see whats up.
Scottie, I have to agree with Tony, why don't ya just replace it? they seem to be cheap enough in Marretts.

Well just thought I'd say Hi all

See ya.

Gramps

[Scottie-TX]

Never considered replacing the balance. It probably is a replacement for the original floating balance, and altho we both know, these things are not my forte, I do have a feel - a sense - for a properly performing balance. After service, this one seemed EXCELLENT. Freestanding outside movement, it would oscillate for a LONG time once set in motion.
The good news? NO; The GREAT news.
It's done. Over. Stick a fork (pun in ten did) innit! This thing is singing like th' fat lady. I mean that balance is so busy, you can't even see the spokes - just a blur of motion. THAT's "done".
I did. I serviced that fork bushing - re-cleaned it - purged it of any dirt, flux, etc. , installed the balance and the little SOB just took off in PERFECT beat.
Thank you EVERYone for guiding and assisting me again.

[shutterbug]

Hey Scottie - maybe these balance springs ARE your forte! Why not just give all those Vienna's to me and concentrate on alarm clocks? :D

Welcome back Gramps :)

[Scottie-TX]

Well SHUT:
You may be on to something there.
While I was on a roll working on junque, decided to lay into another long overdue rountuits - another piecea junque. If it wasn't stamped GERMANY, I swear it was made in India or China.

[Scottie-TX]

Not running at all, gave it the best dry cleaning worthy of junque and began showing some signs of life albeit - you guessed it: "Out of Beat!"
SHEESH! Looking like someone got a little carried away with a steak on the EW bushing decided to remove the balance. Hmmmmm;
As Gomer woulda said, "surpraaaaaaaze!"
Movement took off like a banshee! The balance also contains the EW!

[Scottie-TX]

Serviced this assy., found the staking was not a problem, straightened the spring and secured it where it was loose at the taper pin, but did notice the pin platform at a rakish angle. Methinking that pin platform needs to be straightened. May be the reason out of beat.
Your thoughts on all this - Please?

[Veritas]

Scottie i have never seen this type of movement before.Looks very rare to me.Wish i had some help to give.
I am sure some other clockies will help you out.:cool:

[shutterbug]

Is it bent, or just so loose that it's leaning? For sure is going to need to be parallel to the plates.

[RJSoftware]

Here's all I know about balance / hairsping arrangement.

No loops in hairspring allowed to touch each other. If they do movement goes too fast. Same as shortening hairsping.

The dog leg is the bend at end where staked which is a curve intended to follow regulation loop. The dogleg prevents regulation loop from pushing down on loops which can make them contact each other.

Getting balance wheel in beat is easy when looking at pin fork relationship. The pin should leave fork at equal distances in both directions. I use to worry about aligning 3 points pin, anchor arbor and fork while at rest. No need. Finding center by equaling out escapement on both sides is same thing.

Biggest problem. Hairspings that move too fast.

This is either insufficient power as in 'it has enough power to oscilate but does not push enough to turn balance wheel the full amount. Escape is short and therefore fast.

OR

New replacement hairsprings (which tend to be much too strong). Old ones are more flexable. Softer metal perhaps.

You would think that all one would have to do is have longer hairspring which would allow more flex to create longer oscillation motion. But, not so, this is because in order to fit the hairspring in the movement one has to be able to conform to the regulation loop that is original to the clock.

Main rule: Do not cut original hairspring coil. No matter what condition you think it's in (kinked etc...) it may still be salvagable. But if you cut it's toast.

You can work out hairspring kinks and re-establish loops with nice set of tweesers needles and good visor and time.

The cones on end of balance wheel can be sharpened. Never had to do it though.

Replacing the hairspring collet is tough. Very tough. Also you can broach the inside of new hairspring collet but it gets sucky. I think they make them with harden brass so no squeezing allowed. They just simply bust.

If you can't get small thin blade screw driver in slot of collet. You can use needle nose (carefully) as it is easy to slip and bend inner coils that way.

Any helpful comments apreciated.
RJ

RJ

[Scottie-TX]

Dunno, SHUT;
I just always hesitate to bend or correct something until I study it - analyse it enough to decide, "it don't belong that way" and ANY time something in a clock is not parallel or perpendicular, I notice it.
After "spritz, blow, and lube" (duncan swish alternative), it's been running just fine for several days. Albeit - still ever so slightly out of beat and at the end of its (-) (minus) reg. That adds up.
ARJAY; Your counsel as usual is excellent; comprehensive. Problem here ARJAY, is the plates that hold the balance and EW are blind. You cannot sight thru them to eyeball alignment of pins.
Really not totally satisfied that it's running because it could run better - in beat. Have not even been able to locate collet but imagine that if - when - I do, that adjustment will need be by guess. Move italittle and if worse - move alittle the other way.

[Smudgy]

It may just be the picture, but I do think the pallet fork is crooked (out of plane). Straightening the fork would be in order (as you suspected) and just might clear up the out of beat condition (it's likely that it will if it is only slightly out of beat). If not just align the fork so that it settles centered in a straight line from the balance pivot to the fork pivots (with no power applied). You can do the beat adjustment while the platform is off the clock (you'll need to let down the mainspring anyways), and it will probably be easiest to do it that way (more visibility).

[Scottie-TX]

Again, SMUDG;
I'm pretty sure you're right about that pallet fork. But as for eyeballing the alignment - you can't look directly into it. The plates are not open. Let down the power? Nah. I jes' stick something in a wheel and let it lock up. Remove it when I'm ready to test.