Hampden Balls

[BILL KAPP]

What do we have in the Data base for Hampden? Has anyone been keeping track of how many have surfaced over the years and their serial numbers?


I know some are marked Superior Grade and some Ball's Standard. I have only seen dials with webb c Ball, Cleveland on them. Any other dials?


I love this forum and appreciate the information you guys are willing to share.

Happy hunting,

Bill

[Fred Hansen]

A good starting point would be the Hernick/Arnold Hampden book for specific movement serial numbers.


There are a few different movement markings and a few different dial styles. I believe some different movement variants are pictured in some of the Ehrhardt books and the Hernick/Arnold Hampden book.


Some of the Hampden-Ball dials are pretty plain, but some do have some decorative touches "similar" to the look of some of the Moorhouse signed E. Howard dials ... but I haven't heard anything directly linking Moorhouse to these Hampden-Ball dials so I do not want to suggest they are (or aren't) his work ... only that the overall "look" has some similarity.


The most impressive dial I am aware of has a locomotive image and is pictured in one of the Ehrhardt "Price Indicator" books ... 1979 edition I think but my books are temporarily packed away so I can't check right now ... :(


Fred

[HenryB]

In watching the Hampdens, I have not really tried to keep track of the Balls, as I consider them a Private Label, and do not track Private Labels at this this time.

In a year on Ebay, I have spotted maybe a half dozen all together.

Fred is correct, The Hampden Watch Book by Herrick/Arnold has much of the basic information on them, some pics and some observations on serial numbers.

Not quite sure how many markings there are: Ball Standard, Ball Standard Superior Grade, Ball Standard High Grade, etc. or the jeweling.

Kent and Ed may have more information on their observations over the years.

Attached is a pic of 761715 - Ball Standard Superior Grade-17 Jewel

[rrwatch]

Here is what we have in the database that Kent and I maintain:

S/N Mvt Marking Jewels
346262 Webb C Ball 15
372594 Webb C Ball 15
444731 Ball's Std 15
480872 Ball's Std Superior Grade 15
481080 Ball's Std Superior Grade 15
481239 Ball's Std Superior Grade 17
721071 Ball's Std 15 HC
759657 Ball's Std Superior Grade 17
759720 Ball's Std Superior Grade 17
759760 Ball's Std Superior Grade 17
761682 Ball's Std Superior Grade 17
761715 Ball's Std Superior Grade 17 (Yours, added to database)
866973 Ball's Std Superior Grade 17

[BILL KAPP]

Thanks guys,

Kent and Ed, I believe 441731 is marked on movement Ball's Standard Hi grade.

Do you know if those first two 346262 and 372594 are marked Webb c ball on the dial or the movement?

Henry thanks for the pic.

Fred, I am on it, I will post info from those sources ASAP. A chance for me to contribute something!

Happy hunting,

Bill

[Fred Hansen]

More movement data ...


480814 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
481303 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
626754 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
657953 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
657973 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
759593 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
759610 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
759631 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
759637 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
759740 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
761624 - Ball's Standard
761660 - Ball's Standard
761742 - Ball's Standard
761780 - Ball's Standard Superior Grade
761781 - Ball's Standard High Grade

And some dial data ...

444731 - (fancier dial style)
480872 - (fancier dial style with red 5 minute track)
481080 - (fancier dial style with red 5 minute track)
761742 - (script Webb C. Ball dial with "hollow" Arabic hour numerals)

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

My notes agree with Bill on #444731 ... "Ball's Standard High Grade"

[HenryB]

Recently Completed ebay auction no. 280131902564

Shows No. 761845 - Ball Standard, complete with the dial

[BILL KAPP]

Henry,

Hopefully that puppy is in the mail to me right now.

Bill

[HenryB]

ROFL-glad to hear it Bill

[BILL KAPP]

Hi again guys and gals,

Here is the result so far of a quick compilation. Will add to it as I can.


http://members.tripod.com/williamkapp/id29.htm

Happy hunting,

Bill

[Kent]

Fred:

Would you have the jewel count on those movements?

Thanks,

[Fred Hansen]

Probably not for most ... I noted the markings and any unusual movement/dial features as I saw each of the watches but did not note if 15 or 17 jewel.

I will have a look through and see if I saved any photos, and if so will post back the info for what I have.

Fred

[rrwatch]

Bill,
The first two serial numbers, 346262 and 372594, are marked "Hampden" on the movement and "Webb C. Ball, Cleveland, O." on the dial.

Yup, S/N 444731 is marked "Ball's Standard High Grade" on the movement, missed the High Grade part as I was writing the post.

Fred,
The movement configuration (hunting or open face) would also be helpful. so far the only hunter that I know of is 721071.

[Fred Hansen]

Hi Ed -

I think likely all I posted were open face ... I would have considered a hunting case movement to be unusual and of note and I would likely have recorded this.

Fred

[BILL KAPP]

Ed, Thanks for that info. I wonder if we should accept a hampden movement with a ball dial as a ball-hampden?

Kent, I have the jewel count pretty complete on my list.

Just the one hunter so far. I show it as an 18H. all the open faced are just labeled 18 on my list.

Happy hunting,

Bill

[Fred Hansen]

Ed -

I believe likely all open-face ... hunting case movements would have caught my attention as an unusual feature and I would have likely recorded this detail.

#481303 is a 15 jewel movement sold at Jones-Horan auction last summer and photos are still online.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Here is a link to a photo showing one of the fancier dial styles I mentioned above (with a look similar to some Moorhouse signed E. Howard dials) ...

http://www.jones-horan.com/0602/images/kwa070_a.jpg

This fancier style is also seen with 5 minute numerals in black, but I have seen more with the red.

Here is a photo of one of the plainer style Hampden-Ball dials I owned ...

http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6%3DzqH%3AxxqUD7qRUrKxzX7BHpUUKx gXP0J%3F87KR6xqpxQQQexoloxaPaxv8uOc5xQQQoaJQGaoQaQ qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXP0J%7CRup6eJJ%7C/of=50,476,443

Fred

[Tom McIntyre]

I was walking though the NAWCC Museum this afternoon and noticed the Whitcomb and Ball, New York/Hampden watch on display. Sorry I did not think to write down the sn. Perhaps someone knows what it is.

In the watches for the Seminar last October we had several Hampden Ball watches. The one with the Morehous style dial had an unmarked movement. I had hear that all those dials were on unmarked movements, but that is probably too broad a generalization.

Morehouse did work for Hampden at roughly the time these watches would have been made. He moved around quite a lot due to an alcohol problem.

[BILL KAPP]

346072 and 372594 are both in the Hernick/Arnold book as on3L A model 59 movements with no designation as Ball private labels.

Kind of tough to designate any of those with Ball dials and unmarked movements as Ball-Hampdens.


Interesting sidelight. I note a total of 29 marked movements listed in Hernick or observed over the years.

22 of them are Ball's standard Superior Grade
2 of them are Ball's standard (could these be also marked Cleveland O?)
2 of them are Ball's standard Hi grade
1 of them is a Hunter marked Balls standard, Cleveland Ohio
2 of them are open face marked Ball's standard Cleveland Ohio.


Yet the Ball's standard Superior grade movements gets the same 2 stars as the other 6 Ball's standard hi grade and Ball'sstandard movements. Both superior grade and standard Cleveland Ohio HC get 3 stars even tho no one has seen a superior grade hunter yet.

I know its only a guide and that more will likely turn up over the years, but just as polls use small random samples to predict results, I would bet that the Ball's standard Superior Grade will turn out to be the most "common".

[BILL KAPP]

346072 and 372594 are both in the Hernick/Arnold book as on3L A model 59 movements with no designation as Ball private labels.

Kind of tough to designate any of those with Ball dials and unmarked movements as Ball-Hampdens.


Interesting sidelight. I note a total of 29 marked movements listed in Hernick or observed over the years.

22 of them are Ball's standard Superior Grade
3 of them are Ball's standard (could these also be marked Cleveland, O.?)
2 of them are Ball's standard Hi grade
1 of them is a Hunter marked Balls standard, Cleveland Ohio
1 of them is an open face marked Ball's standard Cleveland Ohio.


Yet the Ball's standard Superior grade gets the same 2 stars as the other 6 hi grade and standard. Both superior grade and standard Cleveland Ohio Hc get 3 stars even tho no one has seen a superior grade hunter yet.

I know its only a guide and that more will likely turn up over the years, but just as polls use small random samples to predict results, I would bet that the Ball's standard Superior Grade will turn out to be the most "common".

[rrstd]

Tom,

I believe the Whitcomb & Ball you are referring to is serial number 9192.

[Ron Birchall]

Here is 481303. It is in the database but you can add that is 15j.

[Ron Birchall]

Here is the dial for 481303.

When I purchased this watch, I believed the dial to be a Moorhouse style and likely a copy.

In the April Bulletin however, Gerrit Nijssen reports that Moorhouse left Waltham after Ezra Fitch assumed the Presidency and remained unemployed for more than a year after which, he worked at Hampden for another year before joining Howard.

[Ron Birchall]

Here is the dial for 481303 along with some detail at 3 O'Clock showing characteristic "Mulberry" design in addition to fancy script. (Edit: Note label on enlargement is my error.)

When I purchased this watch, I believed the dial to be a Moorhouse style and likely a copy.

In the April Bulletin however, Gerrit Nijssen reports that Moorhouse left Waltham after Ezra Fitch assumed the Presidency and remained unemployed for more than a year after which, he worked at Hampden for another year before joining Howard.

As the dial is unsigned, it may still be appropriate to call it "Moorhouse style."

I'd like to think however that it is likely the real deal.

[BILL KAPP]

Tom,

That watch in the museum must be #9192. As of April, 1979 it belonged to T. William Schroeder. Bulletin 199 shows its movement pic and a Hampden dial.

Whitcomb and ball were only in existence for part of the year of 1879. As Hampden took over the New York watch co operation in 1877 and began operations with a remodeled version of the NY movement, I think it safe to say that by 1879, the watch is truly a Hampden. I know that Shugart lists it as a NY Watch, but conversely Hernick/Arnold lists the plate as a Hampden and I believe that is the more correct nomenclature.

Mr. Schroeder speculated that the dial had either been replaced or due to the short lived Ball/Whitcomb partnership no JN dials had been ordered.

Fun to speculate. This happened 10 years or so before Ball really got into merchandising watches on a large scale.

One could make a case that all the watches prior to the 999 were really private label or JN Watches, but that nitpicking technicality wouldn't have any impact on their desirability or collectibility!

[Jeff Hess]

One could make a case that all the watches prior to the 999 were really private label or JN Watches, but that nitpicking technicality wouldn't have any impact on their desirability or collectibility!
--------------


Terrifc thread. Couple of questons and comments though.

Bill how do you define "prior to 999"?

There seem to very broad defintitions of this. My number 603 Hamtion Ball has the 999 dial on it.

And as to "Whitcomb and ball were only in existence for part of the year of 1879", I really wonder if they were in existance at all. Does anyone have any advertsing or references other than the watch?

Ball set up shop there as a watchmaker and already had advertsing cards printed and completed and dated 1879 touting "railroad watches for Railroad men a specialty.

Jeff Hess

[BILL KAPP]

Jeff,

Kind of subjective to guess what was going on back then. It almost feels like some of the earlier runs were "test marketing". Even the 13000 and 14000 Hamilton 999 runs and the 8700 938 run reflect this. Ball & Co make up about 25-30 percent of these runs! The JN and brotherhood watches comprise the bulk of those runs. I note that with the exception of a couple of Kendrick watches in the 42K run that Ball 's name seems to be on all succeeding movements and dials. As many of his former JN continued to order watches from Hamilton as we see with the Marcy and other specials, I speculate it was Ball's decision not the individual jewelers (inspectors).

Again, it is nitpicking to call one run a JN Ball & Co and another a Ball Hamilton. Either way the collector is proud to own one.

Ball & Co dials and labels persist longer than one would expect. I wonder if there were different partnerships or investors involved who had different rights and claims?

I have read elsewhere but for the purpose of this thread my source on Whitcomb and Ball's existence came from Bulletin 199.

I would be more comfortable with 603 Haveing a Webb C Ball, Cleveland,O dial. That would be more in line with 601 and the Hampden Superior Grade watches. Ball dials always seem to closely match the movements.

That does not take anything away from the fact that you have a wonderful movement of a trememdously early Ball Hamilton. In fact I am extremely jealous. I doubt that I will ever be able to find or acquire a similar example. Congrats!

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Bill,

Besides the Hampden mvts marked with the Ball name, Ball also purchased some specially marked mvts from Hampden that do not carry the Ball name. I will see if I can dig out the info for you.

[Jeff Hess]

Thanks.

Great thread!