Interesting early railroad? watch

[Luca]

Picked this up on eBay. Dust cover marked 'Penna R.R. Co'. Obviously an English watch - mov't by Thomas Blundell and I believe case made by Ralph Samuel in Chester - 1855. Has the engine no. on the back cover - 212.

Comments? Guess I could/should have posted this under European watches but this one sort of straddles the line.

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/penna5.jpg

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/penna6.jpg

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/penna3.jpg

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/penna4.jpg

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/penna2.jpg

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/penna1.jpg

http://www.lucadicecco.com/watch/penna7.jpg

[Fred Hansen]

Tom McIntyre has a similar watch pictured on his website at this link ...

http://awco.org/OddWatches/PennRR/PennRR.htm

These seem to predate the American made Pennsylvania Railroad watches ... of which I believe Waltham provided the earliest, followed a few years later by watches from Elgin and the United States (Marion) Watch Company.

Fred

[Kent]

Luca:

Why do you think that 212 is an engine number and not the PRR watch number?

Oh yes, your might be interested in the following:

"Rules for Passenger Engine Men," Rules and Regulations for the Government of the Transportation Department of the Pennsylvania Rail Road, 1849, reprinted in "Railroad Timekeepers," Ian R. Bartky, NAWCC Bulletin No. 262, October, 1989, pg. 401, and "Running on Time," Ian R. Bartky, Railroad History No. 159, Autumn, 1988, pp. 23-4.

"Each engineer will be furnished with a watch which shall be regulated by the Station Agent at the commencement of each trip, and must be deposited with him when the engine returns. If not returned in as good order as it was received, the Engineer must pay the expense of repairs."
"Conductors furnished their own watches. ... [The Conductor] will also see that the Engineer has the correct time at starting ..."


Edited to add 1849 PRR rule.
[i]Edited to provide a more complete reference for Dr. Bartky's cited works.[/b]

[Luca]

Kent,

Just an assumption - guess it might be wrong. Can you tell me more about these or the PRR?

Luca

[Kent]

Luca:

I've just edited my above response to add an 1849 PRR rule that sort of addresses the issue. More specifically, the watches were distributed (and collected back) independently of the engineer or the engine. It thus stands to reason that the watches had numbers independent of any engine numbers.

[Luca]

So the no.s seen on all these early watches such as the walthams, elgins, and I guess some English are just assigned numbers from the PRR? Do the numbers have any rhyme or reason?

What are the earliest watches seen to have RR markings in the U.S.?

Luca

[Kent]

Yes, that's what the numbers seem to be. They were probably numbered in ascending order as the watches were obtained. This is usually how the locomotives were numbered, once the railroads got past just putting names on them. Rolling stock was also numbered this way, usually in blocks of sequential numbers.

Early railroad watches are discussed in "Early Railroad Timekeeping," Dana J. Blackwell, NAWCC Bulletin No. 245, December, 1986, pp. 459-463.

In the article, Mr. Blackwell mentions watches made by a number of well-known firms during the 1840s and specifically watches made by H. Barraud (London) in 1853 and marked for the Boston & Providence Railroad and for the Vermont Central Railroad.

[Luca]

Thanks Kent, I'll have to see if I have that bulletin in the basement. Guess I could borrow it from the NAWCC if not.

Luca

[Tom McIntyre]

Thanks Kent for the great piece of information. I had overlooked the implications also.

The story of the Waltham PRR watch was always told with the number being the engine number. It seems more likely to be a PRR stock number.

My watch is numbered 22, but the case is marked M&Z and is an American case. I had presumed the mark was for Muckle and Zesinger, but that would make it much later than the 1855 mark on the watch above.

It seems likely that there was a different M&Z making watch cases in the US in the early 1850's.

Add date comments

[Luca]

Tom,
Maybe the watch I show was conscripted by the Pennsylvania railroad a bit after it was made and not necessarily in the 1850s. Is that a possibility or is it more likely the PRR engraving came in the 1850s as well? Kent?

Luca

[Kent]

Although I have no specific documentation on this, I believe that the numbers would have been engraved on the cases as part of the contract for the purchase.

[Tom McIntyre]

I have always been curious about the case on my watch. The movement has the patent mark for the lever, which should have been pretty much gone by the 1840's.

It is certainly a possibility that an enterprising watch dealer picked up some older movements and fitted them to cases or had the cases engraved to fulfill the terms of the contract.

In addition to the lower number on my example, I am pretty sure the movement is about 10 years older than your movement. No particular evidence, it just "looks like it."

fix typo

[Luca]

Tom,

What I was hoping (before I got it) is that my 1850s case had an 1850s Boston Watch Co movement in it!! Like a Warren for example. Wouldn't that have been nice :o

My general feeling is that the movement and case on mine were married from the beginning but I guess you never know for sure. I need to look up the dates for Blundell and compare to casemaker.

It looks like the style of the engraving is a little different between your case and the one on this watch. Maybe that relates to the period when it was done...1840s vs 1850s?

Luca