Elgin B.W. Raymond grade 506

[Fred Hansen]

Photos here of serial #34205026, and then a few quick questions in the next post.

[Fred Hansen]

Was this grade typically marked as adjusted to 6 positions or to 5 positions?

Is the "Temp." marking usually seen as part of the adjustment mark on these?

From the Elgin website a production of 4600 is shown for the grade, but some of these were with winding winding indicators. This watch does not have an indicator ... is this grade more common with or without the indicator?

Thanks in advance!

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

Not sure if this had any influence on the movement markings, but this one looks to have headed to Canada and is in a Canadian Fortune gold-filled case that appears to be original and has a 24 hour Arabic dial.

Fred

[Kent]

Fred:

When Ed and I wrote about 16-size B.W. Raymonds (Feb & Apr 2002), we came up with 5,500 as a total production. At this point, I can't explain the difference with Wayne's figure of 4,600 without a lot of digging up of notes and conferring with Ed.

There are quite a few variations of the No. 506 and not enough examples in our data base to really analyze them. Here's what we've got for the No. 506:

- - S/N - - - - - - - - - - - Jwls - Dial - - - - Notes

33,814,719 - BWR - - - -21 - SS AN 24 - Empress Case, LS, A5P, Gold Train
33,814,910 - BWR WI - 21 - SS AN - - -A5P, Illinois "Pride of Elgin" 1/4 Gold High Stem Case
33,814,980 - BWR WI - 21 - AN M - - - A5P, GJS, Gold Train, Style 19 BWR Model Case
33,814,985 - BWR WI - 21 - SS M * - - -BWR Case Personalized for SP Employee
33,869,993 - BWR WI - 23 - DS AN - - -Elgin RR Case - Confirmed (on 13-Jul-07) that Dealer Mail-Order List says 23-jewel
33,934,965 - BWR WI - 21
34,008,785 - BWR - - - -21 - SS AN * - -LS, GCW, Inner Circle Dial, 3055 Style Case
34,008,954 - BWR WI - 21 - Orig - - - - A5P
34,008,983 - BWR WI - 21 - SS AN - - - A5P
34,133,333 - BWR - - - -21 - SS AN - - - LS, A5P, Inner Circle * Dial, Fortune Case
34,205,026 - BWR - - - -21 - AN 24 - - -LS, AT6P, Fortune Case
34,205,171 - BWR - - - -21
34,205,383 - BWR - - - -21 - SS AN * - - BWR Case, AT5P
34,205,863 - BWR - - - -21 - SS AN - - - Elgin case, A6P, Invar balance (not marked), Star dial
34,205,920 - BWR - - - -21 - SS AN - - - A6P, Star Dial
34,205,965 - BWR - - - -21 - SS AN * - - Elgin Case, A6PT "Temp." on Bbl Brg above "Adjusted 6 Positions" Inner Circle Star Dial
34,483,058 - BWR WI - 21
34,483,211 - BWR WI - 21
34,483,386 - BWR WI - 21 - SS - - - - - - A5P, Gold Wheels, BWR Solid Bow Case
34,483,393 - BWR WI - 21 - SS - - - - - - A6P,
34,483,500 - BWR WI - 21 - SS AN - - - A6PT, Elgin Case - Last 2 digits unknown
34,483,537 - BWR WI - 21 - DS AN - - -Elgin Case
34,483,645 - BWR WI - 21 - M - - - - - - BWR Case
34,483,645 - BWR WI - 21 - AN M - - - A6P, Gold Train, BWR Case "W.D.P."
34,483,839 - BWR WI - 21 - SS AN - - - A6P, GT, GJS
34,483,873 - BWR WI - 21 - SS AN - - - A6P, Elgin Case
34,483,916 - BWR WI - 21 - AN * - - - - A6P, GJS, Gold Train, Inner Circle Dial, Stiff Bow BWR Model Case
34,483,975 - BWR WI - 21 - DS AN - - -BWR Case
34,574,248 - BWR WI - 22 - GCT Blk 24-PS, Mil.Elgin Case
34,574,271 - BWR WI - 21 - AN * - - - - A6P, GJS, Gold Train, Inner Circle Dial, Elgin Style 26 Case
34,574,300 - BWR WI - 21 - GCT 24 - - PS, Hack Set, Sweep Sec Hand - Last 2 digits unknown
34,574,339 - BWR WI - 22 - GCT 24 - - PS, Mil.Case, Sweep Sec Hand
34,574,370 - BWR WI - 22 - GCT 24 - - PS, Mil.Case, Sweep Sec Hand
34,574,489 - BWR WI - 22 - AN - - - - - LS, A6P, Wayne says "Star In Sec Chpt - Teardrop Case"
34,574,562 - BWR WI - 21 - GCT 24 - - Stiff Bow Case
34,574,718 - BWR WI - 21 - SS AN - - - Elgin RR Case
34,574,839 - BWR WI - 21 - AN Bold - -A5P, Elgin Case
34,574,845 - BWR WI - 22 - GCT 24 - - Spec prod experimental hack watch, sweep sec w/ WI, PS, mkd "21 jewels but factory modified to 22j. 24 hr GTC dial.Chrome OF w/o mil mkgs. S/N list shows grade 506 as 21j.
34,574,946 - BWR WI - - - - GCT 12 Wht -A6P, Sweep Sec, Dial & Mvt "bu aero us navy"

WI = Wind Indicator
SS = Single Sunk
DS = Double Sunk
M = Marginal Minute (may be Montgomery)
GCT 24 = GCT dial, hour hand make 1 revolution in 24 hours.
GCT 12 = GCT dial, hour hand make 1 revolution in 12 hours.
* or Star Dial = Dial has Elgin's Star on it.

As always, the above information is subject to errors in reporting or in data entry. Also, the lack of noting a feature or marking only means that it was not reported. It does not necessarily mean the the feature or marking is not on the watch.

Edited to add recently received data.
Edited to add recently received data.

[sdjencso]

Was this grade typically marked as adjusted to 6 positions or to 5 positions?

Is the "Temp." marking usually seen as part of the adjustment mark on these?

From the Elgin website a production of 4600 is shown for the grade, but some of these were with winding winding indicators. This watch does not have an indicator ... is this grade more common with or without the indicator?

Thanks in advance!

Fred

Hi Fred,

Based on information I've read, grade 506 was typically marked to 6 positions. Though I do have one from the first run that is marked to 5 positions. I have not seen any of these movements marked with "Temp.". As you indicated, this marking may be related to the watch having the Canadian dial and case.

As for Wind Indicator vs. non-WI, the majority of grade 506 that I have seen have had the WI. I have not come across any information that provides a more precise breakdown.

-Steve

[Fred Hansen]

Kent and Steve -

Thank you both for the terrific information!

I had not really noticed variations on the grade 506 before besides the presence/absence of the wind indicator, but I am surprised to see that there are apparently a handful of variants to this grade.

I will be keeping an eye out for information on these in the future and will definitely look to post back here to this thread with info and hopefully can help add a little bit to Kent's terrific database.

Fred

[Kent]

... I do have one from the first run that is marked to 5 positions. ...

-Steve

Hi Steve:

Would you please share the serial number and any other particulars of the markings, case and dial? This is how Ed and I are able to generate the lists that we post.

Many thanks,

[Ralph Porter]

Hi Kent,

Here for your list is the info from the two grade 506 BWR's that reside with me; and the third one is owned by my wife's uncle in Georgia.

sn 33,814,980 - 21J, WI, montgomery dial with bold AN, adjusted 5p, gold train and jewel settings, in Elgin style 19 BWR-marked case.

sn 34,483,916 - 21J, WI, inner circle dial with star & boxcar-style AN, adjusted 6p, gold train and jewel settings, in Elgin fixed bow BWR-marked case.

sn 34,574,271 - 21J, WI, inner circle dial with star & boxcar-style AN, adjusted 6p, gold train and jewel settings, in Elgin style 26 case, marked as 'cased & timed at Elgin factory'.


By the way, what's the difference between grade 494 and grade 506, just the 23 J movement with motor barrel? The grade 494 I have is sn 34,766,523.

Thanks, Ralph

[Kent]

Hi Ralph:

Thanks very much for the additional information, I've edited the above list to include it (and, of course, I've added it to our data base).

To respond to your question: "By the way, what's the difference between grade 494 and grade 506, just the 23 J movement with motor barrel?"

There is another difference that is perhaps more significant, technically. The grade No. 506 has a monometallic, uncut balance while the the No. 494 has a more conventional (for its time) bimetalic, expansion balance.


Fred:

To respond to your comment above: "Not sure if this had any influence on the movement markings, but this one looks to have headed to Canada ...

I don't think that the Canadians required adjustment to temperature to marked on the movements insofar as the neither the Hamilton No. 992E, the Ball No. 999 nor the Waltham Vanguard (all contemporary to the Elgin No. 506) were so marked.

[Ralph Porter]

Hi Kent,

You're a wealth of knowledge.

I was quite interested in seeing the technical difference between the two BWR grades so I compared the balance wheels (see side by side photo) and it appears to me that both of these have the split bimetalic expansion type. Curious, why do you suppose? Perhaps just the factory run at the time, or am I missing something?

Thanks, Ralph

Added: These bitmap images don't show the detail, but both .jpg images clearly show a balance split on each side, with the white metal strip inside the wheel and brass? strip on the outside.

[Kent]

Hummmm ....

Perhaps Ed and I looked at too small of a group of samples when we looked into these watches.

Here's what we turned up, you can see that it has an uncut balance:

[Fred Hansen]

Kent -

My watch also has a split bimetallic balance wheel and the handscratched serial number on the underside of the arms is a correct match to the movement.

Fred

[Ralph Porter]

Yup, so it is......but to add to the interest I dug out and checked my earliest one, sn 33,814,980, which also has the split bimetalic expansion type.

It will be interesting to see if the uncut balances are scattered through-out the various runs, or if there is a cut-off where they only occur before a specific serial no. Always another mystery to help solve!

Thanks, Ralph

[Fred Hansen]

34205991 - signed "Temp. Adjusted 6 Positions" and does not have a wind indicator

Fred

[Kent]

Thanks for the data! And, thanks to your input, a correction to our original statement about the 506 having a monometalic balance has just been submitted to the Bulletin along with a Railroaders' Corner column. Although I haven't heard from Diana about it, I suspect that it will be in the February 2008 issue.

[M. Cross]

About time too. I've missed the 'Railroaders' Corner' articles in the past few issues.:clap:

Regards! Mark

[Kent]

Just spotted: Serial number 34008274 (appearing on a popular website), a grade No. 506, is fitted with a monometallic balance. It's marked to be adjusted to 5 positions.

Hummmmmm .........

Elgin may have offered a limited number of these, but I don't recall any Elgin literatuare on it.