Info on English KW/KS

[Submarine Chief]

I recently bought an English KW/KS pocket watch that is just a little different from others I have seen. It is 58 mm, exlcluding pendant.
The case is hallmarked sterling. No maker or number on the case. I
have no idea of jewel count or other pertinent movement info. I would
love to get any any information available. The watch runs exceptionally
well. Don

[Timebroker]

Hi,

The hallmark as far as I can see gives it the year 1801.

[Frank Menez]

There is a Daniel Cohen listed in Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World by Brian Loomes. Circa 1823-32 Shearness a Town near the mouth of the river Thames. The Hall marks appear to be Chester 1824.

Can not make out the Case Makers initials which could confirm the above info.

Let us know what the initials of the case maker are.

[jakraka]

It is typical 'standard' English fusee lever. The Hallmarks are Chester 1889/90 according to my opinion and are correct for the type of the watch.

A nice watch in good condition, congratulations!

Jan

[Frank Menez]

It is typical 'standard' English fusee lever. The Hallmarks are Chester 1889/90 according to my opinion and are correct for the type of the watch.

A nice watch in good condition, congratulations!

Jan

A closer look at the Lion Passant would indicate the year 1889/90

[Frank Menez]

A review of Pocket Watches 19th & 20th Century by Alan Shenton shows a typical English lever of the period 1890s, which is simular to the Dan Cohen watch

[Jerry Matthews]

I can confirm that the hallmark is Chester 1889-90. There is no Dan Cohen of Manchester listed in the latest edition of Loomes, and Cohen was most likely a retailer who bought in sufficient quantity to have his name inscribed on the movement. The watch appears similar to those made by the Lancashire Watch Company of Prescot, England.

The case maker (initials T.R.A.) was probably Thomas Richard Arnott. Priestly lists Arnott as registered at the Chester office in 1894, which is later than the hallmark date, but the records of the Chester assay office are not 100% complete.

An old English fusee like this has many, many years of accurate time-keeping left in it, if given reasonable care. They have a very satisfying feeling in the hand.

Jerry

[Submarine Chief]

Thanks to everyone who replied. It still amazes me how much information and history is stored in the hands of Nawcc members. The information that I received from the previous owner referred to a "double barreled"
lever mechanism. Any comments on this? Thanks a million. Don

[Frank Menez]

Dan Cohen of Shearness 1823-32 is listed in-

Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World Vol 2 by Brian Loomes First Edition 1976- Reprinted 1978.

I wonder why the latest edition has not included this entry??? Have retailers been eliminated from the latest edition???

[Jerry Matthews]

Dan Cohen of Shearness 1823-32 is listed in-

Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World Vol 2 by Brian Loomes First Edition 1976- Reprinted 1978.

I wonder why the latest edition has not included this entry???

Frank

Daniel Cohen of Sheerness, 1823-32, is in the latest edition of Loomes, as is Daniel Cohen of Liverpool, 1825. But these are not the same persons as Dan Cohen of Manchester who, based on the hallmark and style of movement, came along about 50 years later.

Jerry

[Frank Menez]

Jerry
You have better eyes tham I have. It would have been a lot easier if there was a clear picture of the Case Makers initials. I agree that Thomas Richard Arnott is the case maker.

PS I need to obtain some later editions of Loomes books. It is so easy to jump to the wrong conclusion.

Frank

[Jerry Matthews]

Jerry
You have better eyes tham I have. It would have been a lot easier if there was a clear picture of the Case Makers initials. I agree that Thomas Richard Arnott is the case maker.

PS I need to obtain some later editions of Loomes books. It is so easy to jump to the wrong conclusion.

Frank

Frank,

I highly recommend the latest edition of Loomes---published in Sept 2006. He incorporates the earlier work of Baillie so you don't need to have both volumes, and he updates and corrects his previous editions. An easier to read layout, too.

Available on Amazon.

Jerry

[John Pavlik]

Jerry,

An observation on this watch .. it is what is called a Going Barrel, not a fusee.. Winding the square is directly winding the mainspring.. I believe it has the large idler gear that appears as a 2nd barrel.. hence it will wind in the "Normal" counterclockwise direction..the 1890 date is somewhat late for a fusee.. and by this time many makers were using the going barrel..

A dating observation to help others... If you notice the steep bevel of the bezel under the crystal, going toward the dial, this design was not used on English cases before approx. 1875..

[Jerry Matthews]

Thanks for that, John, and of course you are right. By 1890 makers were using the going barrel.

Have you any idea what Don was referring to above when he said something about a "double barrel"?

Jerry

[John Pavlik]

Jerry,

I beleive that was me that said something about a Double barrel.. When the fusee was taken out of English watches and you wound the mainspring directly, because of 1 less wheel in the complete train, ie the fusee, the watch would wind oppsite of a "standard" fusee.. many makers filled this spot, where the fusee used to reside, with an idler wheel that looked like another barrel.. It was done I believe because many people have a hard time adapting to "New" ways.. It would be easier to sell the going barrel if people did not notice much difference.. It wound the same way!!! so it must be as good as the old ones..:clap:

[Jerry Matthews]

John,

Thanks for that explanation. I knew that 19th century Englishmen preferred their watches to wind anti- (or counter-) clockwise. That reassured them that they had a real English product, and not a Swiss or American import. So when English makers went over to going barrel movements they inserted the device to enable winding the same way. But I hadn't come across the term "double barrel" in horology before---only in shotguns:o

Jerry

[Tom Huber]

That watch is not a fusee. It has the KW going barrel with the idler wheel.

Tom

[fuseefan]

Hello from a brand new member,

I would just like to add that this watch has a going barrel. Notice the winding square on the barrel cover? A fusee would have the winding square at a different location.

Kind regards

Fuseefan

[Tom McIntyre]

Thanks to everyone who replied. It still amazes me how much information and history is stored in the hands of Nawcc members. The information that I received from the previous owner referred to a "double barreled"
lever mechanism. Any comments on this? Thanks a million. Don

Double barrel is a term often used for a patent reversing pinion or a dummy fuzee. When going barrel keywind watches first appeared, they sometimes used an extra "barrel" to make the winding in the same direction as the "common fuzee."

However, this watch appears to be a fuzee watch to me. Do you have a picture from the side showing the fuzee?

[John Pavlik]

"However, this watch appears to be a fuzee watch to me. Do you have a picture from the side showing the fuzee"?

Tom,

View the winding arbor...it protrudes from the mainspring barrel.. It winds the mainspring directly.. I would say a going barrel ...with the idler barrel pivoting in the plate directly below the balance cock..

[Burkhard Rasch]

Hi Don!
I`m not an expert of these but what I know is this:Your watch looks like an ordinary chain and fusee movement.When English watchmakers abandoned that system in favor of moving barrels they introduced a reversing wheel that looked like a second barrel in order to keep the winding direction to the left.That`s what sometimes is called "double barrel".But as far as I can see Your movement does not have that feature.Take a pic from the barrelside and the experts can tell You for sure.
Burkhard

[fuseefan]

I am 100% sure this is a going barrel. However, It seems to be one of the early English converts from the fusee. Please note the Bosley regulator. It is on the back-plate. Later watches had the regulator on the balance cock, where almost all watches have them today.

[Mike Phelan]

Sheerness is on the Thames estuary, near London, and about 200 miles from Manchester.

Cohen is a name of Jewish origin, and there were and are many such families in and around Manchester, and also a few long-established material dealers as well, such as S Lanzetter in New Brown Street.

[John Pavlik]

I would say there is a conection to a Maximillian Cohen, listed as working in Manchester 1850 - 1900 in the Market Building, Thomas Street.... Dan could of been a son another form of realitive..

[fuseefan]

Also, 'New English Express Lever" seems to be a take on "The Express English Lever" by J G Graves. That was a very popular watch at the turn of the century. You come accross a few of those on ebay occasionally.

I have, somehow, aquired three J G Graves express english levers with detail differences. I think all three have movements made by the Lancashire watch company. I wonder if this movement is also made by them.

Regards
Aditya

[Submarine Chief]

Thanks for all the comments. Very educational. I wouldn't know about
some of the finer points, but I don't believe this is a fussee. I took some
more pictures. I don't see a chain anywhere. This watch is still running
great and accurate.

Thanks again!

[Les harland]

The Lancashire Watch Co were in business from 1889 to 1910
The movement is almost identical to "Graves Express English Lever" I have in front of me
That was made by the Lancashire Watch Co in Prescot Lancashire
Les