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dan_46
02-03-2006, 01:04 AM
I just bought a E.N.Welsh mantle clock with the
following on the label.
eight day, half hour strike, cathedral gong, turn back.
what does the term "turn back" mean.

Dan

dan_46
02-03-2006, 01:04 AM
I just bought a E.N.Welsh mantle clock with the
following on the label.
eight day, half hour strike, cathedral gong, turn back.
what does the term "turn back" mean.

Dan

chasbaz
02-03-2006, 01:07 AM
Hi Dan,

I expect this means it has a mechanism in the strike actuating levers that allows you to turn the hands backwards without jamming the strike.

Best,

Robert M.
02-03-2006, 04:16 AM
As a matter of fact there is an interesting article in this month's NAWCC Bulletin (page 82) pertaining to a patented Ansonia Turnback Detent and its mechanical function.I can't say if it is exactly what your Welch mechanism looks like but it is an interesting article never the less.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton

owen.or
02-03-2006, 04:42 AM
Dan,
In addition to the article mentioned by Robert M, there are articles in several Bulletins regarding early American turn back patents. One in the April,1997 Bulletin shows one of the earliest patents.It was acquired by the Waterbury Clock Co. in 1874. The article mentions several other Bulletin articles which show patents for turn back mechanisms granted between 1876 and 1879. They appear in Bulletins for April,1992;December,1994; and February,1996.Clock makers such as Ingraham and G.B. Owen are mentioned in these articles in relationship to the patents. I could find no direct mention of Welch in these articles, but once the cat was out of the bag many companies would have created variations. David "owen.or"

dan_46
02-03-2006, 07:25 AM
http://static.flickr.com/40/95051986_a53a574cb3.jpg
Photo of Clock Label. I had thought that E.N.Welch was taken over by Sessions. Did they make clocks for Ingraham or vice versa. About when did this all take place?
The movement is marked E.N.Welch.

Dan

owen.or
02-03-2006, 08:48 AM
I don't know of any direct link between EN Welch and the Ingraham Clock Co. Someone else might have some insights on that one. Sessions took over the interests of EN Welch in 1903. David "owen.or"

Bill_NY
02-03-2006, 08:57 AM
dan_46-
I assume you are speaking of the 'Licensed by the E.Ingraham Company' on your label. My guess would be that Welch Mfg. paid to license the Turn Back feature of the E. Ingraham design patent. As owen.or's research indicated that no 'turn back' patent was issued to E.N. Welch.

Bill

dan_46
02-03-2006, 10:26 AM
That must be the answer, probably had to pay to
avoid patent infringment.

lamarw
02-03-2006, 03:56 PM
I might be able to add a tid-bit to this one even it it adds addtional confusion. I also have an old E.N. Welch Clock model name JARBEAU. The clock is a rather plain wood case black mantle clock. I would guess it to be a rather old clock since the E.N. Welch movement which I believe to be original to the case has pinned plates. The label is similar to Dan's clock label with the licensed to Ingraham annotation at the bottom of the label. There is no mention of the "Turn Back" feature on my clock's label. Up until this thread, I had never heard of or seen another Welch clock with that relationship with Ingraham mentioned. I have also never found any reference to the JARBEAU model. Dan's clock sounds as though it maybe a latter Welch clock, and mine appears to be a rather early Welch clock.

Bill_NY
02-03-2006, 08:23 PM
Some other part of the design which Welch incorporated must have been patented by Ingraham.

Bill

heirloomclocks
02-03-2006, 09:16 PM
Hello,

Welch "DeMurska" model listed in Tran's book as available in 1889.

Cordially,
Carl

Dave Heise
02-06-2006, 09:40 AM
Back to the subject in hand and responding to Bob Fullerton's reply, I read with great interest the same article especially Wayne DePotie's statement (per Peter Gosnell) "that in all his 35 years this is the very first time that he has ever come across this detent." I just performed a restoration of an Ansonia mirror-side w/cupids clock containing exactly the same turn back detent. It was fascinating to watch it work and I wondered at the time why I hadn't seen it more frequently. In operation, it operates like a dream and never malfunctioned during the time that it was in my shop. Luckily, the owner lives in the condo next to mine and I'm sure that if I were to ask her if I could bring it back for some research, she would be thrilled! Needless to say, even though the movement has this feature, I instructed her NOT to turn the minute hand backwards as she has other clocks and if you do it to one......... Incidentally, the movement in the article is the same as is in her clock with one exception - the movement that I worked on lacks the geneva stop gearing; I theorize that they were removed by a butcher/botcher. Does anyone know where I can obtain replacements? I've been meaning to post this question but it slipped my mind.
As always, the boards are filled with knowledge and experience; great stuff. Enjoy your day, folks.