Pivot Files and Burnishers

[jirwin]

Picked up a good deal on a Sherline lathe and made a pivot polishing fixture similar to that proposed by Richard Hatch in the October Bulletin. Since the Sherline has no provision for collets in the tailstock, we mounted the base plate on the toolpost and placed the runner notches on an indexable brass disc.
My problem now is locating a suitable burnishing tool. The only catalog listing I can find is Merrit's combination file/burnisher. At $40 it is overpriced.
It doesn't seem practical to make my own from an old file without a surface grinder. Does anyone know of a source for a simple pivot burnisher? What grits have been found best for making burnishers?
Is any good fine cut needle file suitable for pivots or is it best with smooth
beveled edges like a burnisher.

[bangster]

I've seen several people say they make burnishers out of old files. Grind the teeth off smooth, then "prep" the surface by dragging it once sideways across a piece of sandpaper or emery cloth.

Don't try to use a regular needle file on pivots. Even the finest of them is too coarse, and can take off way too much material. Pivot files are extremely fine, and also pricey. $40 is the usual going price for one of the combo tools.
Check Ronell Clock Co. (ronellclock.com). They have a combo tool a few bucks cheaper, and a straight burnisher for $14.95.

bangster

[Smudgy]

If you have a worn out needle file and a sharpening stone or emory cloth you can do it by hand (although it will take a while)

You could also easily make one from tool steel. Just harden and temper to straw color, polish, then prep. Use 350-400 grit paper for good results. I also keep one cut with 200 grit to take light scoring out of surface instead of a file (the pivot file is still better for heavily scored).

About the cheapest burnisher on the market that I've seen is made in India and comes in a yellow plastic protector. If you get this kind it is best to sand the scoring off that comes on it when new and prep with the 350-400 grit. It also works best if you prep it frequently, as the metal seems a bit soft and it doesn't hold the rough surface long.

One other way is David LaBounty's method of using a piece of carbide stock. You'll need a diamond stone to prepare the surface on it, but it is reputed to hold up well.

If you go to David LaBounty's website (http://www.abouttime-clockmaking.com/), go to the "Downloads" page and look at the article titled "Burnishing". It probably has all the information you need.

[Mike Phelan]

My problem now is locating a suitable burnishing tool. The only catalog listing I can find is Merrit's combination file/burnisher. At $40 it is overpriced.


You still need a pivot file as well, though, really. Twenty quid is not too bad for something that should last you a lifetime and will bo a lot of useful work; JMO.
Other needle files are much too coarse.

As far as making a burnisher, it is only a piece of flat steel, hardened and grained. Not in the rocket science category at all. You certainly do not need a surface grinder.:o Old file, lathe tool, bit of gauge plate (or whatever you call it here).

I would plump for Dave LaBounty's idea, though, q.v.

[Scottie-TX]

Yeah;
That's the one I got, SMUDG; Thata one.
Still haven't warmed up to it yet. Did all yer s'posedta do.
Jes' seems to me every time I finish polishing a pivot and try using it, I feel my pivot looked better afore I used it.
Mebbe one a these days I'll catch on.
I understand the concept. I just ain't mastered it yet I guess.
Either that or I have mastered it and I'm misinterpreting the results.
You tell me:
What is the visual evidence of a properly burnished pivot?
Is it visible without a microscope?

[Smudgy]

I forgot to mention, Dash-To (http://www.dashto.com/) usually has used pivot files/burnishers listed.

Scottie, You can tell when your burnishing that the pivot has been burnished, usually without any sort of optical aid. It normally produces a "black" polish surface. If you are ending up having your pivots look worse, then you are probably having trouble with contaminants scoring the pivots. You just need to wipe the burnisher with a clean oily cloth, that will remove any loose particles and give a oily surface to the burnisher. Wipe it anytime the burnisher or oil starts to look dirty and it should leave you with a highly polished surface.

[Scottie-TX]

Interesting, SMUDG!
You are now the second I've read that describes that black appearance.
Steve Nelson of SNCLOCKS also described it it one of his writings.
Hmmmm. Gottal lot to learn and not much time to learn it in.
NEVER seen a black pivot.

[Grandpa]

What oil do you use?
Some where I read that you should use the same oil that you will yse to lub it. That is because it will depsoit the oil in the pores of the pivot.

[shutterbug]

There was a thread about that recently, Grandpa. The final consensus was that it's not so important IF you really clean it well afterward.

[Grandpa]

Thanks shutterbug,
I do keep a bottle of cutting oil on my bench. But I only use it to thred steel.

I think I will continue to use the clock oil on my burnishers. I keep a lot of it around. I buy it by the pint and use so little. One pint might last a year.

Gramps

[Mike Phelan]

I buy it by the pint and use so little. One pint might last a year.

Wow - Gramps - that's about 300 clocks a week! :o
My 100ml bottle has done about 100 clocks over the last two decades and is still about 1/4 full!

[Grandpa]

I will admitt that I had a heavy hand at times. I have learned to put one drop on each pivot. Sometimes the drop is bigger than I want.:~(
Grease too, I use a tooth pick to put a little where I want it, But sometimes I get a little smear where I didn't want it. So I have to clean it up.:~(
But
I've also found the oil is good other things.
Anytime I need a little oil I grab my trusty oiler.

[Scottie-TX]

Dang.
Mine's three quarter empty.

[Smudgy]

Scotty,
The black polish doesn't make the whole pivot black, just a stripe. If you polish a flat surface to a black polish it will look black only at certain angles (and then it sort of looks like a void), otherwise it looks like polished steel.

[Scottie-TX]

"A stripe":
A lateral stripe parallel to the pivot - or a circumferential (I amaize myself; I CAN'T believe I spelt that wright) or a circumferential stripe?

[Mike Phelan]

I will admitt that I had a heavy hand at times. I have learned to put one drop on each pivot. Sometimes the drop is bigger than I want.:~(

Suppose it depends on what a drop is.

For pivots near the top of the train, I would say that the "spade" width on my oiler is probably the same or less than the pivot diameter.

Larger holes like barrel arbors, I use a 1mm screwdriver as an oiler.
Barrel and cover holes I use the same oil or grease that I have used on the spring, before I fit the arbor so the lubricant is all internal.

I think this has been amply covered before, but if you put too much oil on a pivot, it ends up running down the plate eventually leaving the pivot dry.

I don't think it is important what oil you use on a burnisher - old timers just rubbed the burnisher on their hair! After all, cleaning ought to remove all of it.

[Grandpa]

Whooh Mike, Some folks my age might have a problem with that. No Hair:o
ooooh I'll bet that hurts, my burnishers have a sharp point. Is that why clock newbies have scabs on their scalps?

I seen my Dad use a screw driver to get just a little oil where he wanted it.
Maybe I should get rid of the oilers and use a screw driver. I have run some down the face.

My friend Jim told me about oiling on the inside to avoid staining the face of the plate.

I am getting better at it, I just squeeze the oiler just a bit. Some comes out and I have better control over it.
I am always striving to get just enough.

Just thinkin that Scottie had a post about what we did when we started compared to what we do now. I didn't do as good a job oiling 2 years ago as I strive to do now.

Thanks Mike

Gramps

[Smudgy]

Scotty, the stripe runs lengthwise.

Grandpa, you may want to switch to using a dip oiler or small screwdriver. Dip oilers are available form the material houses, but can easily be made, especially for clock sized pivots. Take a piece of wire and hammer the end flat (like a flat spoon) then shape the flattened portion into a spade shape. You can mount it on a wood dowel for a handle. Make different sizes for different sized pivots. They will allow you to place the same sized drop of oil everytime, the size of the drop being dependant on the size of the oiler. It sounds like you may be using too much oil. The oil shouldn't be noticable by the naked eye. If you look with a loupe it should look like the pivot is wet, but you don't want a pool or puddle of oil around the pivot. You can put a small amount oil in an oil cup for use, that will reduce the chances of contaminating the oil in the main container.

[Mike Phelan]

Dang.
Mine's three quarter empty.

Never thought of you as a pessimist, Scottie. :o

[Mike Phelan]

Whooh Mike, Some folks my age might have a problem with that. No Hair:o
ooooh I'll bet that hurts, my burnishers have a sharp point. Is that why clock newbies have scabs on their scalps

I am your age as well, Gramps, and the same applies. I have a Solar Panel hairstyle. :cool: 1944 was a good year.


I seen my Dad use a screw driver to get just a little oil where he wanted it.
Maybe I should get rid of the oilers and use a screw driver. I have run some down the face.

We call "oilers" what you call "dip oilers". IMHO your sort of oilers have no place in clock repairing at all - you cannot really control the small amount needed.
I have a set of oilers, aka dip oilers, that I have had for years, but as Smudgy says (and the rest of his advice is excellent) they are easy to make. If you were using screwdrivers they would have to be very small.
Always use oil pots/cups, not straight from the bottle. They are available in different sizes.
I use a cap from an old aerosol packed with pith to clean oilers (and other tools).
If you look at any of the books like DeCarle, Borer, Gazeley, they will show all these things.


My friend Jim told me about oiling on the inside to avoid staining the face of the plate.

If that was a problem, he was using far too much oil, and it will run down the plate whether you can see it or not.
I sometimes oil the pivot, not the plate, if the latter is inaccessible.
Front centre pivot on a Napoleon is a typical example as the cannon pinion is in the way.

[Grandpa]

Hey guys thanks, I hope others are learning from this as I am.

I have seen the oil cups and dip oilers in catalogs. Bought the oilers instead, live and learn.
One project today will be to make my own Dip oiler. Can I use copper wire? Being an old telaphone man I have all kinds of copper from #6 down to 26 around the shop.

I think for a cup I want somethin I can put a lid on. I will put my wife on that project.

Mike, you said that you use a top off a aerosol can filled with pith to clean the oiler. I don't have any pith. What else might I have that I can use.
Let me understand this a little better, Why do you have to clean the oiler?
Could you use a rag to wipe it off?
When I was into radio I would drag the tip of my soldering iron accross a wet sponge to clean the old solder off, is that the reason you clean the oiler?

Gramps

[Grandpa]

Mike, Jim just re pivoted a old cokoo for me. From my limited knowledge he did a great job. I can't see the oil.
I think he was taught that for two reasons, first it gets the oil on the shoulder of the pivot better and second I think that every one new will tend to over oil. (as I am) His mento knew this and had him oil the inside to limit the visable staining from the oil.

You know, if you would have asked me if I over oiled a day or so ago I would have said No. You have taught me that I am.

Thanks Guys, I will improve with time.

Gramps

[Smudgy]

Grandpa, copper will work OK, it will just be easy to bend. The first oiler I made was from a piece of copper wire and it worke fine. You should get yourself some pithwood, it is useful for more than just cleaning oilers. It is really soft wood that is used mostly for cleaning and holding things (small parts, pivots, oilers, etc). Using a rag has a chance of leaving a residue of contaminents and lint, neither of which are desireable. Having a lid for the oil cup is desireable, as that will help keep the oil clean.

[Mike Phelan]

Gramps
Thanks. Glad that I, a mere hammer-chewer, can help. :)

Any metal for making an oiler should be fine.

Slightly off-topic, but I will need some more pith soon, and found that M&P no longer stock it, so will have to look elsewhere, possibly across the pond.

Here's my oily stuff:

[Grandpa]

Thanks Guys,
I seen pith wood in the catalogs, I use toothpicks to clean pivot holes. Its just that they are ready available, in the cupbord (and my wife keeps them in stock)

Next order I will get some.

Nice picture Mike, At first glance I thought you were cooking something in a pot, but then I seen that it was your cap with pith in it.

See you down the page

Gramps

[David Robertson]

Grandpa,

Maybe I misunderstood your comment, but don't confuse pithwood with pegwood. Pithwood is soft like styrofoam and is for ppushing things into for cleaning or holding.

Pegwood is like toothpicks and is for cleaning pivot holes.

By the way... I find a piece of chamois to be good for wiping off pivots, etc without leaving any lint or particles... I also have a thin strip on my bench that I can run through bigger holes to clean them out of oil and other easy-to-move particles, residue, etc.

[Bill_NY]

By the way... I find a piece of chamois to be good for wiping off pivots, etc without leaving any lint or particles... I also have a thin strip on my bench that I can run through bigger holes to clean them out of oil and other easy-to-move particles, residue, etc.

Dave,
Great idea! Tonight, when I get into my shop that is the first thing I will do.

Thanks

[Grandpa]

Thanks Dave, I did have it wrong.

I like the chamois idea too.

Can you clear me up on pith, I never used it.

Gramps

[David Robertson]

Thanks Dave, I did have it wrong.

I like the chamois idea too.

Can you clear me up on pith, I never used it.

Gramps

Gramps...

I've included a picture below. It is soft in the middle.. you can plunge an arbor or anything in it and it is a tight enough fit that foreign material is removed. Also it is somewhat absorbant so it cleans off oil, etc. You plunge the part in the end.. not the side..

[Mike Phelan]

Pith (or pithwood in USA) is the soft stuff in the centre of hollow twigs.
I think that the pith we use is from the elder tree** but may be mistaken.

**Grows nearly everywhere in hedges and waste ground in England - berries are a deep purple colour and used for jam and wine (and purple splodges on your car when the birds eat them :o) and the flowers are used to make wine and elderflower cordial.

Like David, I too use strips of chamois or skiver on the bench for all sorts of things - polishing big holes and crossings etc.

[shutterbug]

I think that the pith we use is from the elder tree
Probably what we refer to as Elderberry here. Just a guess, but it is certainly used the same :)

[Grandpa]

Ahhhhh yes, elderberry.

When I was a kid I used to pick the small sticks and slice them down the center with my pocket knife. It was fun to clean the center soft stuff out.
Well I was young. Found pleasure in small things.

Funny my father worked at the toy factory but I found pleasure out of cutting sticks. ( and my fingers).

Kids today are not allowed to have knives.

I will order some pithwood today. I seen it in the catalogs.

Thanks guys,

I have to get back to fixin.

See ya down the page

Gramps

[T.J. Kloss]

... Since the Sherline has no provision for collets in the tailstock ....

jirwin:

Actually Sherline does make a fixture that holds an 8mm collet in their tailstock. Though it's a bit pricey

Click Here (http://www.sherline.com/2085pg.htm)

Tom :)

“Sometimes you really don’t know if your being rewarded or punished”

[Mike Phelan]

When I was into radio I would drag the tip of my soldering iron accross a wet sponge to clean the old solder off, is that the reason you clean the oiler?

I do that as well, Gramps. Sort of - it is to clean the bit to remove oxidised lead that floats to the top of the pool from the solder.
Most solder stations have a sponge in them, like my Metcal and Weller do.
The pith is a very good cleaner, and I tend to use it for pivots as well, as a final clean.
I use Bergeon Rodico for the same purposes as well.

[Grandpa]

Thanks Mike,

I asked my supplier for some pith.

I have a cracked gear on the min hand arbor. I posted it on another thred. Someone told me to yse a iron to solder it back together.

What size iron do you have?
mine are prety small, less than 50 watts. I think maybe 25. In the electonics world we were getting smaller not larger.
To heat a gear up to solder I would think you would need a prety big iron. Maybe a soldering copper. What do you think ?

Gramps

[David Robertson]

Gramps..

A small butane torch is easier and quicker.. just be gentle with the heat... waft it over the part to get it hot enough to melt the solder but not too hot.

[David Robertson]

Gramps..

A small butane torch is easier and quicker.. just be gentle with the heat... waft it over the part to get it hot enough to melt the solder but not too hot.

[Grandpa]

Thanks David,

I have a oxy micro torch and a large butane.

My wife loves Harbor Freight, Next time I'm in there I'll look for a small butane.

I couldn't see your picts.

Gramps

[shutterbug]

I picked up a pencil butane for about $6.00 at Menards. Works good for small work.

[RJSoftware]

I know many of you would have grave doubts about what I use, but I found a nice flat steak knife made of really good harden steel. On the flat side (opposite the sharp side) It's perfectly square.

It has really micro fine lines running perpendicular like a burnisher and I suppose I could enhance them with sand paper. I have not bothered to do that yet as it seems to work perfectly.

I do not add oil though, that might be reason that the knive grooves manage to produce enough friction to shine/move material.

I know burnishing is suppose to super-heat or move the metal to form a smoother surface.

I sandwich the pivot between the knife blade and piece of wood held/squeezed together with my fingers. Then use battery drill to spin.

Spin a little, examine, spin a little examine... I can even adjust pressure favoring one side or other to get pivot more square. Tighter at shoulder or tighter at end or even.

Seems to work ok for me.
RJ