serial numbers

[tonal28]

Hi,

It would be interesting for me as a new person in the fascinating pocket watch world to hear opinion of the others. I hade few contacts with pocket watch collectors in my country and it seems to me that they are overestimating the need for the match of the movement and case serial numbers as the only proof that the case was not changed. Reading through the books and web gives an impression that the difference of these numbers does not mean that the case was changed. Sorry for very primitive question, but it would be very useful to hear live thoughts of the experts.

Kestas

[Jerry Treiman]

Although many European watches had matching numbers in the case and movement this is not common at all in American watches. For the American watches this is largely due to the separation of the watch industry from the case industry plus the fact than many of the watches were cased at the retail jeweler. Even when a watch was cased at the factory the numbers almost never matched and original certificates are often preserved with these watches that document the different movement and case numbers. There are a few American movements that may have been custom cased in which case the case number may match the movement. Jeannot & Shiebler is an American casemaker that often (but not always) did this.

As you can tell I am most familiar with the American watch industry. Perhaps others will be able to comment on how often a European watch might have had mismatched numbers.

[Smudgy]

It would depend on where the manufacturer was located. The American makers sold most watches uncased. With most of the American watches the casing was done by the jeweler at his/her discretion or to the customers order. On the other hand, the Swiss makers cased their watches, and the cases had numbers that matched the movement numbers.

[rrwatch]

Many of the higher grade Swiss watches sold in the U S and Canada during the 1880 to 1930 period were made to fit American standard case sizes and were cased in American or Canadian cases.

The primary reason was that importation of uncased movements were classified by Customs as being "watch parts" and had a much lower duty levied than complete watches which were taxes at a higher rate.

Companies such as Longines, Omega, Gruen (actually an American company, but who had their movements made in Germany or Switzerland), and Vacheron & Constantin made and marketed movements for the North American railroad market. To avoid giving the American manufacturers a reason to try to ban these watches from railroad service they advertised that their movements would fit any standard size American case, thus avoiding fitting problems if a case was damaged and had to be replaced.

[Tom McIntyre]

English watches like the European counterparts before the factory age generally have serial numbers repeated in the cases. The case was usually made to fit the watch. When standard calibers were introduced around 1900, the watches were found with arbitrary case numbers because, like earlier in America, the case were fitted at the retail sales point.

[tonal28]

Thanks all for the information. So, as I understand, maybe even Swiss watch could be in the original case with "a little" different numbers if it was produced after 1900?

I am having in mind LePhare based repeater+chronograph with mowement number 231709 and case number 207722. The similar situation I have observed in quit big number of LePhare repeaters (signed as well) on the web.

[Tom McIntyre]

The later Le Phare repeaters are not high quality watches and are unlikely to have been made up with matching case numbers, in my opinion.

In my experience, push repeat mechanisms are usually found on lower grade work than the slide repeat mechanism. The pendant push repeat mechanisms of the early 1800's are a different matter and those can be quite fine.

[rschussel]

I own a split second LeCoultre chronograph in a heavy solid gold ( 3 or 4 oz) AWCC case that my father gave me.

The case and movement serial number match. I suspect when an expensive European movement was custom ordered a custom American case was also produced.

I also have a few American 12 size watches where the case and movement serial number match but this is very unusual.


Bob