Hamilton 944 total production

[BRIANWHALEY]

Does anyone out there have a figure for the total production of the Hamilton 944??

[terry hall]

approximately 6600 movements.

[Fred Hansen]

I believe there are different movement markings and damaskeens for the Hamilton 944 ... has anyone studied production among these differences?

Fred

[terry hall]

The movement markings do vary.... just like other grades...

first ones are only marked 'adjusted'

then the grade mark comes in on the barrel bridge... have seen it in two locations

then the 'adjusted 5 positions' on the main plate (521015)

then the 'adjusted 5 positions' on the barrel bridge (521914)

then "full" markings on the barrel bridge.. (do not have a s/n noted)


I am certain there were some 'special finish' movements, but no concrete numbers

[Robert Sweet]

The 18 size, open face, 19 jewel, level set (only), 944 movement was produced from 1905 to 1908.

Terry,
The seven runs listed below only add up to 6,500 movements which leaves us 100 movements short. Do you know if other movements were converted to the 944?

The first run of 500 movements, with serial numbers, 426501-427000, went to the finishing dept., on 5-5-1905.

The second run of 1000 movements, with serial numbers, 479001-480000, went to the finishing dept. in two separate groups on 6-29-1906 and 1-12-1907.

The third run of 1000 movements, with serial numbers, 494001-495000, went to the finishing dept. on 1-19-1907.

The fourth run of 1000 movements, with serial numbers, 521001-522000, went to the finishing dept. in separate two groups on 3-30-1907 and 2-7-1908.

The fifth run of 1000 movements, with serial numbers, 522001-523000, went to the finishing dept. on 2-22-1908.

The sixth run of 1000 movements, with serial numbers, 551001-552000, went to the finishing dept. on 5-9-1908.

The seventh run of 1000 of movements, with serial numbers, 552001-553000, went to the finishing dept. on 6-9-1908.

The time the movements remained in the finishing dept. varied from 1-6 months and sometimes longer.

Robert

[Don Dahlberg]

Here is what Halligan has to say on the 944.

total production was 6500 plus 90 changed from 936s. There is some confusion on the numbers produced. Part of this is watches were often sold twice and different departments report different numbers.

For example 472 were returned during the years, and were then sold again. So sales record show 7069 were sold. :%

Although only produced from 1905 to 1908, they were sold until 1918.

For many grades, the first ten of each run were left grey, that is they were not damaskeened or engraved. This was so they could be set aside for private labeling. If these were not needed for privated labels, they may be finished normally later. In this case many gray 936 were converted to 944s. This included 280101-280110.

The double roller and #1 balance were introduced in 1905. (The first 100 movements were single roller).
New Form - New Barrel bridge with changed recessing. Engraved "Adjusted 5 Positions" 1907

No hunting version was ever made (that is, 945)

The movement was built particularly, to provide a 19-jewel railroad watch for a number of the western roads on which the specifications included 19-jewel watches.

That is all I can add on the subject.

Don

[Fred Hansen]

Excellent thread and thanks Don, Robert, and Terry for the terrific info listed above!

I believe apart from the special finish movements with private-labels and/or more exotic damaskeen patterns, there are two distinct patterns used on the "ordinary" 944 movements with one appearing typically on the lower serial number watches and the other on the higher.

I would definitely be interested in seeing any 944 photos posted here so the damaskeen/marking variants could be shown.

Fred

[Fred Hansen]

One I used to own, serial #280903 one of the "converted" grade 944 movements taken from within the 936 serial spans. This movement has what I would consider the "early" of the two standard damaskeens I've seen ...

[Fred Hansen]

Another I had owned, serial #479555 has the same damaskeen as #280903 but is marked "944" on the barrel bridge and "Adjusted 5 Positions" at the edge of the main plate.

Fred

[Robert Sweet]

Fred,
Below is an "art" drawing from a material catalog showing a 944 movement from the "first run".

Robert

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/224/462254862_c9644848e1_o.jpg

[BRIANWHALEY]

Wow, You guys are the best. These old Hamiltons are hard to beat. This one is 101 years old and is keeping time to +3 seconds/day.

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks for showing that one Brian, and that is the "other" typical pattern I've seen on the 944 movements.

All around the outside perimeter of the movement, at about the level of the "5 Position" marking on your watch, is a series of small flower type designs in the damaskeen pattern and this is not found on the movement I showed above.

Also the damaskeen at the center of the movement is different ... where your watch has a wavy pattern that curves out to a uniform distance and repeats, the pattern on my watch alternates between a short and long wavy pattern which repeats.

If anyone else can add photos to better show these damaskeen differences I would definitely be glad to see these, and of course would be interested to see photos of movements with other marking arrangements or scarcer damaskeen patterns.

Fred

[terry hall]

Time for some 'staring and comparing'... when i can get them out of the safe...

now for some discussion.........

Would 426501-427000 actually be the First run... If we know there were 'about' 90 converted grade 936 watches from the 'earlier' run?

what do the finishing records indicate....

:thumb:

[Robert Sweet]

Terry,
The finishing dept. records indicate that 280903 is a 936. It was in a 1000 unit run of movements that went to the finishing dept. 8-12-1903.

I suppose it depends upon when the "conversion" took place as to which run would be the first.

Robert

[terry hall]

The Ledger pages indicate the first 10 movements from each 100 block in the run were finished as 944 and sold to Forsinger.....

but the Townsend notes do not indicate a date......

[Ralph Porter]

Fred, Terry and others,

Here's another arrangement of the text on the 944, apparently from the last run. Enjoy.

Ralph

[Ralph Porter]

Sorry for the double copy of a poor scan. For an improved image, copy it to your desktop and enlarge it.

The serial no. is 552892 and the '944' is located just below the center pinion. When I run this one it rarely varies more than 12 seconds a week.

Ralph

[Ralph Porter]

With my son's help here I'm learning to improve the image before posting, so I'll try this one more time. I appreciate your patience, it is really a nice watch.

Thanks, Ralph

[Don Dahlberg]

Terry,

You might find this useful.

Don

[terry hall]

don
Thanks!

they would if they could be enlarged...on the site...

jeff has image sizing in effect....

full size is only obtainable by downloading to "user files" and linkiing to them....


i will see if i can capture and view an enlarged image..

[Don Dahlberg]

They were larger when I sent them. I assume the board automatically reduces them to fit.

Don

[Tom Huber]

Here's a pic of my 944.

Tom

[terry hall]

That's a good un Tom...


Don... yes, there is an automatic size reduction, unless the file is placed in 'user files' under your profile...

the file then would need to be linked to its location to show on the board...

jeff Xplained it to me the other day when I could not get a catalog scan to a readable size....

In the user file, there is a button, 'copy url' ... it is used to paste the location when clickin the 'image' button at the top of the reply area.
[the one with the mountain]

.

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks for posting that one Tom!

What I find really interesting about your watch is that it is a low serial number from one of the "converted" 936 runs mentioned above ... but that it has the apparently later damaskeen and full marking set. A different looking watch than the one I posted above which is also in the high 200K serial numbers.

Fred

[Don Dahlberg]

I know my ledger pages are difficult to read.

What I find interesting is that 280101-280110 were finished in October and November, 03. They were not sold until Sept. 24, 06. They are listed as 944. At no time were they listed as 936. How could they be completed as 944s before that model existed?

426501 and following were completed in June-August of 05, but were also sold on Sept 24, 06. I don't remember ever seeing so many watches sold on one day and to several jobbers.

It is very strange.

Don

[Robert Sweet]

Don,
According to the "Finishing Dept" records, the 1000 unit run of 280001-281000 were all 936's. Since the 10 unit lot, 280101-280110, was not sold until Sept. 24, 1906 and the first 944's went to the "Finishing Dept" in 1905, would it not be possible for the 10 unit lot to be 944's?

Robert

[Fred Hansen]

Are we talking about Tom's watch?

Its serial number looks like 280702 to me.

Fred

[Tom Huber]

Hi Fred, The SN is 280,702. Also, thanks for the info that it was an upgraded 936. Not being a true Hammy afficiendo, I didn't know that. I acquired the watch at my local chapter mart about 15 years ago. It was the look of the watch, and the price that drew me to it. I paid $40 for it.

Tom

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Tom, I think that is a terrific watch and the movement condition looks excellent too!

Fred

[terry hall]

vot a bargain! :)

[Robert Sweet]

Question? Since the 936 was a 17 jewel movement and the 944 a 19 jewel, where were the 2 jewels added?

Robert

[terry hall]

In the barrel...

note the large jewel setting on the barrel bridge...

[Robert Sweet]

Terry,
Thank you very much.

It appears the 944 was the only 18 size, 19 jewel, movement Hamilton made except for the Ball 999. Was the Ball 999, 19 jewel, the same as the 944 except for the Ball signature?

Robert

[Kent]

Question? Since the 936 was a 17 jewel movement and the 944 a 19 jewel, where were the 2 jewels added?

Robert


In the barrel ...

Naturally, at that time, it is the only place that the two extra jewels should go. Read on .......


Ball's detailed instructions to watch inspectors of the Cleveland & Pittsburg(h) Division of the Pennsylvania Rail Road (known as the "Standard Railroad of the World") as reported in the Jewelers' Circular - Weekly and Horological Review, January 17, 1906, pages 84 & 88 (Courtesy NAWCC Library).

Referring to Rule 2, page 13, Book of Rules, relative to the inspection of the employes' watches, local watch inspectors will observe the following instructions:...

...

4. The following schedule will govern the standard for new watches (italics original):

A. ....

B. ....

C. - Therefore it is suggested and recommended that employes when purchasing new watches for use in railroad service, should select 17 or 19 jeweled grades, which have steel escape wheels, sapphire pallets, double roller escapements, Breguet hairsprings, patent regulators, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and five positions. Besides the regular standard, 17 jewels, the 19 jeweled watches must have two bearings jeweled in the going parts of the mainspring barrel, to fill all the requirements (italics added).

[Robert Sweet]

Kent,
Thank you and I always like the nice references.

Robert

[IMHO]

Hi Terry,

If interested I have a slightly earlier example with Adjusted 5 Positions on the barrel bridge - sn 521286

Dave

[terry hall]

Hi Dave...

always interested... will note it...

Looks like the new addition is coming along :)

[IMHO]

Hey Terry,

Coming along is the least of it! He's up and about already while she crawls commando style wherever he ventures. And Mom's got a new 24x7 job!

Dave

[terry hall]

Now that's an armful !!! Wishing you all well ! And some rest for mom :cool:

[Kent]

Here's 494542 (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/walt845/18S_19J_944_494542_LR.jpg). "Adjusted 5 Positions" is above the balance, while '944" is on the right side of the balance bridge. That makes just like Brian's watch, which being so close in serial numbers, is to be expected.

[Fred Hansen]

Serial #522109 is pictured in Roy Ehrhardt's "1980 Price Indicator" and has a wavy line damaskeen pattern similar to what is seen on some of the 16 size Hayden Wheeler models.

It is marked "19 Jewels" at the left side of the barrel bridge, "944" at the right side of the barrel bridge, and "Adjusted 5 Positions" in a curve below the jewel setting on the barrel.

Fred

[rrstd]

As a Hamilton nut, I find Tom’s 944 very interesting. As Fred mentioned, other 19J examples have been seen from the same era, but with grade 936 style damascening. In the past, I’ve seen numerous examples of watches that remained in inventory for a number of years or were returned and resold. In many cases, these watches appear to have had the grade number or other markings added prior to final shipment. I’m not sure I’ve seen this dramatic of an upgrade before, but that’s one possible explanation for the pattern and markings on Tom’s watch. Anyone have any other thoughts?

As for serial number 522109. If I remember correctly, this particular watch was sold to Wheeler which would explain the “Wheeler Pattern”.

[rrstd]

I've been meaning to post more in regards to Tom's watch, but am just now getting around to it.

As Don mentioned earlier, Halligan's notes indicate "The first ten watches - grey bridges - in series - 280101-201-301-401-501-601-701-801-901 - were changed from #936's to #944's." Tom's watch fall's into these series of watches, which explains the "early serial number".

In reviewing the ledger pages, one will find that Tom's watch (SN 280702) was originally shipped in 1906, but appears to have been returned and was resold in 1918. This would seem to explain the later markings on this particular movement.

Again, I would like to thank Tom for sharing pictures of this watch.

[terofpa]

Another 944 S/N 494935