992 Railway Special SN2368695 questions

[Jerry Bryant]

I aquired a Hamilton 992 Railway Special from a local former high school classmate that I became reaquainted with. It turns out that he is also a pocket watch collector, and was looking for a Howard that I had. We worked out a trade, for my very first 992. An "in hand" inspection can't be beat, over buying on ebay!

Some questions have come to mind since aquiring my 992. It appears to have the gold center wheel, because the center wheel just has that bright & shiny "gold appearance" over the adjacent and more dull brass-colored wheels. My first question: is the gold center wheel of those 992's that have them, made of solid gold?

I have also wondered about the Montgomery dial on my 992. I understand that some 992 dials are made from other materials besides porcelain. How do you tell which ones are made of porcelain, and what other material was used? Is one dial material considered more desirable than another?

Here is the link to photos of my Hamilton 992 SN2368695:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=16071735&uid=5309554&members=1

Thanks!

Jerry Bryant

[Don Dahlberg]

Your watch went to the finishing department on 11/16/1925 and was probably sold in early 1926.

At this time Hamilton was just beginning to sell 992s cased at the factory, but still sold watch movements uncased. In the latter case, the customer went to the jeweler and chose a movement and a case. The jeweler then joined them in minutes. Your case is not one of the ones Hamilton used for factory casing. I see no extra case screw marks to indicate that the case has been switched.

The dial is just wrong. It is a reproduction metal dial, painted to look like a porcelain dial. The Railway Special dial was not used until the 992B in 1941, so it is not even an appropriate reproduction dial for this watch.

Yes, Hamilton had metal dials, but they looked very different and were obviously metal. Here are some metal dials for 16 size Hamiltons from 1926.

We have blueprints of gold wheels in the 992B that are labeled gold plated. I have no proof one way or the other for the earlier 992. I still have problems believing that solid gold would be strong enough or cost effective, but many swear to me that they are solid gold in the old watches.
Don

[Jerry Bryant]

Don,

Thank you very much for this information.

Is there a correct Montgomery dial for my 992? If so, I'd sure like to see a photo of a correct example. I want to get a correct replacement dial, but would prefer to stick with the Montgomery style. I have actually never seen any other dial on any Hamilton 992, except a white porcelain dial. Does this mean that 992's with metal dials, like your two photo examples, are rare, or, that they are just not offered for sale very often?

Your statement that, "Your watch went to the finishing department on 11/16/1925 and was probably sold in early 1926." does not match the information from the Hamilton serial number searches that I have done. I find 1930 as the manufacturing date, in every source that I have checked for my 992 SN 2368695.

Jerry

[Jon Hanson]

I believe the wheels are gold plated.

[Jerry Bryant]

Maybe we will get lucky and have a collector with many years of collecting experience, that specifically has had a 992 center wheel tested for gold content, join our discussion.

Conversely, perhaps it really does not matter very much after all, as long as the center wheel, and all of the other "wheels", continue functioning correctly!

I am now far more concerned with correcting the known issue with my incorrect 992 dial, anyway!

In the current 2007 Complete Price Guide to Watches, on page 234 near the bottom right side of the page, Hamilton case model #10 is pictured. There is an illustration of the exact present dial on my 992. It states under the illustration that this dial first appeared Ca. May 1936. This further supports the fact that my 992 dial is incorrect for my 1930, SN 2368695 Hamilton 992.

My current 992 dial appears to me to be a similar thickness as a porcelain dial, but has the appearance to me of a molded plastic-like material. Isn't it possible that it is a Hamilton 992B dial, made of melamine, that was switched to my 992 for some reason?

Jerry

[terry hall]

Jerry,

in your reference to the Shugart book.........

First, I believe the 'first seen' willl reflect when the model 10 case was 'first seen' not the dial....


The model 10 case was used with both the 992E and the 992B, and the image, because of the 'railway special' dial... i feel would be for a 992B....

There IS a 'correct' montgomery dial for your watch... but it is not the one on the watch....

the era of the watch....
can you state your sources? 2368695 is before 1930....
the finishing records from the factory help prove this..
'other' dating sources indicate 1926 as a time frame.

the case on your watch is a "crossbar" case with the bow replaced....

the dial is most likely an S LaRose replacement dial. the thickness is the give-away... it looks thicker to me with the lever as a reference.

Unless someone has a broken centerwheel for testing, i don't see anyone coming forward to supply a centerwheel for sectioning and other destructive tests to 'prove' if gold plated, or solid gold.


Please feel free to bring the watch to the Chapter 17 meeting in May for a 'hands on' look-see.... :) would love to have a meet-n-greet...

you can contact me off line if you wish.

[Robert Sweet]

Jerry,
I totally agree with Don about your movement date (1925). The information he gave you is from the Hamilton Watch Co. "Finishing Dept" records.

Your movement may be in the original case, which is the 1st Model or referred to by some as the "Crossbar", but please note that the bow has been replaced.

The May 1936 date in the "Complete Price Guide to Watches" that you referred to is the date that the No. 10 case was introduced and not the dial introduction date.

IMHO, your dial is a "S. LaRose" replacement dial, which would only be correct for the 992B movement.

Now you know who my mentor is! Compare the answers.

Robert

[Fred Hansen]

Jerry -

There is some great information in this thread and these individuals have studied the Hamilton factory literature and records closely and have observed and studied literally thousands of 992 series watches.

If you are an NAWCC member and it is possible for you to attend the Chapter meeting that Terry mentions I would very highly recommend it! I know that Terry and others there would be glad to discuss 992's (or any others) and I think it would be a great experience.

Fred

[Jerry Bryant]

Well, guys...the only thing that I have decided for certain, is that I am now the owner of a 992 FrankenWatch. NOT my idea of a desirable pocket watch to collect. Oh well. Now, at least I know... And to think, I traded an all-original, accurately running 1915 Howard GF 12S, in its original wood box and with its original numbers-matching license paper!:bang:

I guess my 992 FrankenWatch would make a nice-looking Christmas ornament.:o

Okay. Now all kidding aside, and on a serious note, does anyone have any suggestions as to what the best thing to do with my 1925 Hamilton 992, with the wrong bow, and the wrong dial?:?|

The list of Hamilton SN's on page 219 of the Complete Price Guide to Watches has the year as 1930 for Hamilton SN 2368695. However, you will not get any argument from me about using the Hamilton Watch Co. "Finishing Dept" records as the final say-so! I just did not know about this information until it was mentioned in this posting.

Terry & Fred: Thank you so much for the cordial invitation to the Chapter meeting. I am presently recovering from left shoulder surgery (rotator cuff repair and muscle/tendon reattachments), and my orthopedic doctor has restricted me from driving at present. Later on after my recovery, that would be great!

Still learning, and still just as much of a Watch Nut!

Jerry

[rrwatch]

Jerry,
Regardless of the replacement dial and the incorrect bow, you still have a mighty fine watch. There is a good reason that Hamilton made about a half million of them, they were one of the best on the market for decades.
So what do you do with it? Wear it !! :thumb:
This is a good example of a watch to use. It won't hurt the value as it would if it were a "mint" or new in box example, it looks good and it will keep excellent time as a daily cary piece. Even if something brreaks, there are enough parts floating around that it will be repairable for many years to come. :clap:

[terry hall]

Friend Ed does make a good point... it may not be advantageous to attempt 'updates' to the watch.....

for one... these bows are not just lying around..... dial is a different situation...


You have a standing invitation to a Chapter 17 meeting...even as a guest... we are ready when You are....:) I hope your healing progresses well.

[Jerry Bryant]

Ed,

Thank you for the encouragement, I needed that!

Terry,

Thanks for the open-end invitation to the Chapter 17 meeting, and also for the get well wishes!

Ed, Terry, et al,

I entered pocket watch collecting with a strong desire and a determination to collect, and, keep, my American antique pocket watches all original. I have had the experience of getting off course with this noble mission only a few times, this 992 being one of them.

I will endeavor to continue to increase my knowledge about the pocket watches that I plan to collect, by researching, reading, consulting with other collectors, and visiting this very imformative NAWCC MB.

Indeed, this 992 and its conglomerate disguise to the novice, still has much eye appeal. I will certainly consider carefully what course of action I will eventually take with this 992. What's more, I will not let this deter me from seeking, and eventually finding, a 992 or 992B that is the original sum of all its parts!:thumb:

Now wouldn't you know it... the spade portion of the hour hand of my 992 started hanging up on the seconds hand, when the hour hand began its slow travel across the seconds bit at the "6" position! Better for the hands to hang up and stop the 992, than for something to break or go wrong inside the movement!

Jerry

[terry hall]

These dials with their additional thickness have caused issues like this in the past...

it takes a bit of careful alignment and 'adjustment' to keep em from hanging...

there is additional 'room' with the original, thinner dials to position them vertically to 'miss' each other.

---

sometimes it is 'difficult' to determine an original watch without documentation... documentation on Hamilton Factory cased watches can include the shipping box with an appropriate label...

[Kent]

... I will endeavor to continue to increase my knowledge about the pocket watches that I plan to collect, by researching, reading, consulting with other collectors, and visiting this very imformative NAWCC MB.
...
Jerry

Hi Jerry:

O.K., here's some more basic information.

In seeking information about a watch, it is the serial number on the movement (the "works") that is important. Basic information about a Hamilton watch may be obtained online using Henry Burgell's Interactive Hamilton Serial Number Lookup Table (http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/db_resch/hamilton_506.html). Since human error may creep in, there may be occasional errors in the results. Oldwatch.com's Hamilton Production Date Chart (http://www.oldwatch.com/Hamiltondate.html) is also an online means for determining the very approximate production date of Hamilton pocket watches. Hamilton's pocket watch serial numbers weren't assigned in strict chronological order. Instead, huge blocks were allocated by watch size. If you check the various published serial number lists,

Serial Number 1 - 194,000 (http://photos22.flickr.com/37806748_49dc2df6d3_o.jpg)
Serial Number 194,001 - 501,000 (http://photos21.flickr.com/37816247_b78aa4b56e_o.jpg)
Serial Number 501,001 - 923,000 (http://photos21.flickr.com/37816248_a8d3f4bd20_o.jpg)
Serial Number 923,001 - 1,513,600 (http://photos21.flickr.com/37816249_69ee5966ca_o.jpg)
Serial Number 1,513,601 - 4,523,000 & Letter Prefix Serial Numbers (http://photos27.flickr.com/37816250_c7b7ca933b_o.jpg)

you'll find the following:

- - - - - -1 - - - - 49,950 18-size
- - 49,951 - - - - 50,000 Unknown
- - 50,001 - - - -85,000 16-size
- - 85,001 - - - 300,000 All 18-size (except HWW models)
- 300,001 - - - 400,000 All 16-size
- 400,001 - - --700,000 All 18-size (except Ball models)
- 700,001 - - - 900,000 All 16-size
- 900,001 - 1,000,000 All 18-size
1,000,001 - 1,400,000 All 16-size
1,400,001 - 1,450,500 All 18-size
1,450,501 - 1,500,000 Unknown
1,500,001 - 1,750,000 All 16-size
1,750,001 - 2,300,000 12-size & Other
2,300,001 - 2,655,300 All 16-size (2,655,301 - 2,900,000 not shown)

It's a fairly safe bet that 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 or 400,000 of one size watch weren't made before making similar numbers of another size of watch. Examination of the Hamilton production ledgers shows that within runs of a grade, there can be several years of variation. Just to demonstrate how difficult it is to come up with an accurate production date based upon a serial number range, this Scan From A Hamilton Production Ledger Page (http://photos11.flickr.com/13717760_b38181b8e5_b.jpg) shows that the 992s within the tiny range of 786001-786020 were finished and sold almost two years apart. Thus, attempts to use serial number vs. date lists (created by using the average number of watches produced over a period of years) as anything other than gross indicators of date of production are flawed to a greater or lesser extent. In general, we think of serial number lists (not just for Hamilton, but for other watch manufacturers as well) to only be accurate within a year or two at best, and recognize that there are numerous exceptions wherein which the dates may be off as much as 3 years or more. That's why books like the Complete Price Guide To Watches use the word "Estimated" in the titles of tables linking serial numbers to dates.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to a note from Jim Haney, I've been made aware of an error in production quantities and have corrected this section.

The grade 992 was in continuous production from 1903 to 1931, and then with a modification, the application of an Elinvar balance (992E), from 1931 to 1940-1. This was an extremely popular watch, of which well over 610,000 were made. Thus, it is the most popular railroad watch ever built, surpassing its successor, the grade 992B (http://photos15.flickr.com/20828301_5cff0e2b3e_o.jpg) by around 80,000.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can view Hamilton's description and specification of the 992 on pages 8 & 9 of the 1912 Hamilton Hand Book (http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/dynaweb/eaa/databases/ephemera/@Generic__BookTextView/39505;nh=1?DwebQuery=Hamilton+#X) (courtesy of Duke University's "Emergence of Advertising in America" website). Notice that it was sold as a movement only. In the early-to-mid 1920’s, a cased 992 sold for $55 - $65, depending upon the case quality. An example of the pricing can be seen in the 1923 Baird-North Catalog (http://photos22.flickr.com/26416970_a8ee21af9d_o.jpg). Although the Hamilton Watch Co. produced the 992 as a factory-cased watch Starting in 1924 (http://photos21.flickr.com/24323086_c12a7f146b_o.jpg), it could still be had as a movement only, to be cased by a local jeweler or by a mail-order firm, as seen in this 1928 Ad (http://static.flickr.com/29/42182199_5833876477_b.jpg). After researching the subject in the Hamilton papers on file at the NAWCC Library, Don Dahlberg reported the following on the NAWCC Pocket Watch Message Board on December 15, 2005:

In 1928 over 4000 992s were sold in white gold #2 cases, only 19 #3 cases 1703 #4 and 2775 #5 cases. I am talking about white gold filled only here. With about 35,000 movements produced in 1928, nearly 25,000 were cased. This leaves about 10000 movements sold without cases.

By the way, regarding wearing your 992, I've carried a 992B almost every day for over 25 years (except when its out for cleaning and oiling, or those rare times when it hits something hard and needs a new staff). It has the identical Swiss replacement dial as is on your watch and the bezel has been switched from a different case. I don't care about the changes that collectors would be horrified over. This is the watch I time my daily activities by. It is the only one that my daughter wants to have passed on to her - she couldn't care a wit about my watch collection, except for it's monetary value. If you're going to carry a pocket watch every day, your 992 is a good candidate - that's what it was built to do.

Keep the questions coming,

[Ralph Porter]

Jerry,

I'll echo Ed's comments that the 992's are fine watches! Personally I enjoy finding one like yours and then making the effort to restore it as closely as I can with age-appropriate original components. It takes more time to find some parts than others but once done, a restoration is quite satisfying whether it's for my collection or just to carry. My goal is for them to be "as manufactured", and not "as new". Like Terry said, without documentation we won't know for sure how a specific watch left the factory, but a correct bow and appropriate Hamilton dial can bring it closer.
If this interests you I may be able to help and you're welcome to e-mail me.

Ralph

[Don Dahlberg]

The lesson is, do your homework before you purchase a watch.

Still, as others have suggested, you have a great movement and a great carry watch.

If you do want to a more appropriate dial, you have two choices. First you can find an original dial appropriate for the period. This is very expensive, especially if the dial is without hairlines or chips. Second, you can get a replacement dial like the one you have, but copied from an appropriate dial. This is not restoration in our minds, but may make you feel better.

I am sorry I did not catch that fact that you had a correct case, but with the wrong bow. Bows were one of the first things to go on a watch, so they are hard to find. Since your watch had a very unique bow, it is near impossible to replace. Live with it.

Here are pictures of the model 1 case with the proper bow and a montgomery dial both from the Hamilton 1926 catalog.

Don

[Jerry Bryant]

I am overwhelmed by the generous support, and the sharing of this valuable information about my 992 posting. A sincere note of thanks goes to each of you that have taken valuable time to share this fascinating, historical, and extremely interesting information, and reference material.

A special thank you goes to Kent and Don, who are patiently helping me get a more firm grip on what antique pocket watch collecting is all about - heritage, history, pure enjoyment of use, and caretaking these antique time recorders/reporters for our next generation - like was done for us by our predecessors.

Kent,
You've given me a lot to digest, so I better get busy!:) Thank you so much for sharing the personal item about your own 992!

Thank you,
Jerry
grammar correction

[terry hall]

Ever Seen a Grown Man Cry ?? :o


http://www.nawcc-mb.com/pictures//file-crossbar broke bow.jpg


to add image... ??

[Robert Sweet]

additional 1st Model info.......

Based on Hamilton records supplied by Don Dahlberg, the following quantities of the 1st Model cases were sold between 1924 and 1933.

Color---------Quantity

14k Yellow GF------2,629
14k Green GF-------7,533
14k White G-F-----10,448
10k Yellow G-F-----7,365

Robert

and below is the US Patent, dated 1925......

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/209/459850294_7f52044df2_o.jpg

[Jerry Bryant]

Don, Terry & Robert,

I'd like to get permission from each of you to post your Wadsworth illustrations & photo on my photo web site, PictureTrail. I'd like to use this to contact, and, show, to a silver/goldsmith who repairs watch cases, in order to get an estimate on making an exact replica replacement bow w/bar for my Wadsworth case. Since these bows seem to be close to extinction, this may be the only option available to a case restoration. Wuischpard & Son in Cocoa, Florida is a fifth generation silver/goldsmith, who has successfully completed several antique pocket watch restorations for me, some of which I have posted on PictureTrail. Peter Wuischpard specializes in antique pocket watch case repair and restoration. He has actually produced gorgeous, complete, original design pocket watch cases, made-from-scratch.

Jerry
Correction

[terry hall]

Sure you can use mine... no problem...

I know of some jewelers that can cast a bow, but they normally use an existing bow to manufacture the mold... as most of these bows are worn, the duplication is only as good as the example for the mold.

many use solid gold, as it it easily castable, but for strength, it should be alloyed....

color matches are also not 'easy' but not impossible.

NOS bows do exist, but finding them for sale is next to impossible. They are an interesting addition to an advanced collection. Their use on a worn, used case is not really advantageous...

Sometimes it is like putting good money towards bad... or like a boat... a vast hole in the water to pour money in...


'sometimes' one can be found on a damaged case (crushed back, missing bezel, crushed frame, etc... but this is not a common offering either...

[Robert Sweet]

Sure Jerry, no problem.

Robert

[Jerry Bryant]

UPDATE:

Thanks to Don Dahlberg's very helpful information and Hamilton Catalog illustrations, I found the correct Hamilton porcelain 16S Montgomery Dial for my 992 SN2368695. Here's two photos of my find:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=16323574&uid=5309554&members=1

It has a tiny "flea bite" chip at the outer edge of the 6 chapter position, that will be hidden by the bezel. Other than that, it has no problems.

Now, to send this correct dial, along with my 992, off to get it installed!

Jerry


grammar correction

[M. Cross]

Ever Seen a Grown Man Cry ?? :o


http://www.nawcc-mb.com/pictures//file-crossbar broke bow.jpg




Terry, is this case/bow yours? If so, I bet Leon Harris can laser weld it back together for you. He's done some FANTASTIC work for me!

Jerry, it may just be my eyes, but do I also detect some hairlines around the '4 'area on your new dial???? Specifically from the '22' minute mark moving out toward the middle, and by the '1' and '2'.

Regards! Mark

[terry hall]

No Mark, not mine... :clap: but i do feel for the owner.

laser welding could be the ticket... better trying than not...

lot of wear at the top of the bow though.

[Jerry Bryant]

[/quote]Jerry, it may just be my eyes, but do I also detect some hairlines around the '4 'area on your new dial???? Specifically from the '22' minute mark moving out toward the middle, and by the '1' and '2'.[/quote]

Mark,

I'd sure like to have a perfect (blemish-free and correct) Montgomery dial for my 992. However, since none of its detectable flaws seriously impair its appearance, I can learn to live with, and enjoy, this correct 992 Montgomery dial.

I hate to sound as if I am in a defensive posture over this dial. But, I am actually removing an absolutely perfect 992B "S. LaRose" Montgomery dial, solely for the sake of restoring my 992 with an original period dial. As Ralph Porter stated earlier, and I quote, My goal is for them to be "as manufactured", and not "as new".

Jerry

[Jerry Bryant]

The removal of the S. LaRose repro dial, which was doubly incorrect because of the 992B "Railway Special" signature, is now history! My Hamilton 992 SN 2368695 now bears a period correct porcelain dial. The photos have been updated, for anyone who would like to see this metamorphosis of sorts:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=16071735&uid=5309554&members=1

It appears that it will be quite a bit more of a challenge to find and replace the bow with the correct Cross Bar Bow. However, and for the time being, I am happy to have made this single significant stride with the installation of the correct period porcelain Hamilton Montgomery Dial!:)

Jerry